i know this is probably a stupid question but ive wondered this for a while. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right? now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian? another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian? how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian? how do u determine what the mode is, by the first chord in the progression, the last chord, or the lowest roman numerical?
Mister CCJ
I'm just offering advice, that may be why no one answered the question. If you can't understand the letter "u" and the word "you" aren't the same, modes are possibly way over your head.
i know this is probably a stupid question but ive wondered this for a while. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right? now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian? another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian? how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian? how do u determine what the mode is, by the first chord in the progression, the last chord, or the lowest roman numerical?
What characterizes a mode is the set of lengths between each note and the tonic (and therefore, the distance of every note with every other note).
1. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right?
Yes. The Ionian is the major scale and the notes you picked belong to that particular scale.
The distance between notes in a Major scale are (W-whole, H-half)
C W D W E h F W G w A w B h C
What "makes" the major scale is a Major third, Sixth and Seventh. What defines it is the sharp 7th that drives the ear back to the tonic.
However, you have not picked chords/notes that characterize that particular scale.
C Ionian is C D E F G A B C
The chords you picked actually support other scales. **(Though not strictly for every relationship... someone please correct me if I am wrong)**.
For example, you could play those chords and actually be on C Myxolydian if you had a passing tone that was Bb.
C Lydian is C D E F G A Bb C. Notice that it is basically a C major scale with a flatted 7th. This characterizes a Myxolydian scale. However, it is the case that the C major chord your picked has a natural B and so does the G major chord, though that sharps the F# which would turn your original scale into a Lydian. This is the point I was making earlier [see **].
Another way to think of the Myxoldyian (that is, instead of thinking of it as a major scale with a flatted 7th) is to consider the following:
G Myxolydian is G A B C D E F G
Notice that this keeps the Ionian relationship on G (shown on C above) except that the F is flatted (making it a Myxolydian).
2. now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian?
In this case the progression could take on both forms because those modes are supported by those chords. The notes that create the C Ionian scale are the same exact notes that create the F Lydian scale, so it depends on which one is your tonic. If your tonic is C then you are still in C Major, just starting on F. On the other hand, may be that you are choosing to trick the listener by inducing an F Lydian. Classical composers use this technique often. In this particular case it would not sound too interesting because you're still using the same notes. (Sharping the F (F#) in passing notes and then playing G Major would sound more interesting, for example.)
3. another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian?
An Em chord is characterized by the F#. An Am chord is characterized by naturals (no F#). Therefore, you would not be strictly in either (which makes things more interesting).
A Phrygian scale is characterized by a minor with a flatted second step, so by making Em's F# an F you would satisfy the Am diatonics, but not the C Major's.
4. how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian?
Following the same logic, if your tonic is C, then you are in C Major. However, starting like this at Dm could put you into an odd minor scale with a (Lydianesque) sharp fourth.
A G Myxolydian would have a Major D, not a minor.
A D dorian would be like D minor with a sharp 6th (giving it that major flavor to an otherwise minor scale, something that guitarists like Santana exploit). Therefore, this could be seen as a D dorian (but the Dm chord induces a Bb which conflicts with a B natural in the D dorian and G myxolydian).
In short, follow your ears. The trick is to elegantly move the listener's ear from mode to mode without it sounding harsh. Like a good writer, you should be able to 'foreshadow' by playing non-diatonic passing notes so that when you change to the new mode it all makes sense ex-post.
hope this helps. Someone please correct me if I have made a mistake.
About the grammar, I don't buy it that typing "u" as opposed to "you" saves you much time. In any case, think of it this way: the utility in time saved you get from typing u instead of you is strictly smaller than the disutility you cause for others reading your bad-grammar post. Assuming that you are the typical internet user (that is, you derive utility from others' utility because it leads on average to more information on the internet), then there is no reason for you to type u instead of you. It also looks bad.
What characterizes a mode is the set of lengths between each note and the tonic (and therefore, the distance of every note with every other note).
1. a I-IV-V chord progression say C F G would be C ionian right?
Yes. The Ionian is the major scale and the notes you picked belong to that particular scale.
The distance between notes in a Major scale are (W-whole, H-half)
C W D W E h F W G w A w B h C
What "makes" the major scale is a Major third, Sixth and Seventh. What defines it is the sharp 7th that drives the ear back to the tonic.
However, you have not picked chords/notes that characterize that particular scale.
C Ionian is C D E F G A B C
The chords you picked actually support other scales. **(Though not strictly for every relationship... someone please correct me if I am wrong)**.
For example, you could play those chords and actually be on C Myxolydian if you had a passing tone that was Bb.
C Lydian is C D E F G A Bb C. Notice that it is basically a C major scale with a flatted 7th. This characterizes a Myxolydian scale. However, it is the case that the C major chord your picked has a natural B and so does the G major chord, though that sharps the F# which would turn your original scale into a Lydian. This is the point I was making earlier [see **].
Another way to think of the Myxoldyian (that is, instead of thinking of it as a major scale with a flatted 7th) is to consider the following:
G Myxolydian is G A B C D E F G
Notice that this keeps the Ionian relationship on G (shown on C above) except that the F is flatted (making it a Myxolydian).
2. now if u changed the progression to F G C (IV-V-I) would it be c ionian or f lydian?
In this case the progression could take on both forms because those modes are supported by those chords. The notes that create the C Ionian scale are the same exact notes that create the F Lydian scale, so it depends on which one is your tonic. If your tonic is C then you are still in C Major, just starting on F. On the other hand, may be that you are choosing to trick the listener by inducing an F Lydian. Classical composers use this technique often. In this particular case it would not sound too interesting because you're still using the same notes. (Sharping the F (F#) in passing notes and then playing G Major would sound more interesting, for example.)
3. another example Em-Am-C. would this be E phrygian or C ionian?
An Em chord is characterized by the F#. An Am chord is characterized by naturals (no F#). Therefore, you would not be strictly in either (which makes things more interesting).
A Phrygian scale is characterized by a minor with a flatted second step, so by making Em's F# an F you would satisfy the Am diatonics, but not the C Major's.
4. how about a Dm-G (II-V)? is hat a D dorian or G mixolydian?
Following the same logic, if your tonic is C, then you are in C Major. However, starting like this at Dm could put you into an odd minor scale with a (Lydianesque) sharp fourth.
A G Myxolydian would have a Major D, not a minor.
A D dorian would be like D minor with a sharp 6th (giving it that major flavor to an otherwise minor scale, something that guitarists like Santana exploit). Therefore, this could be seen as a D dorian (but the Dm chord induces a Bb which conflicts with a B natural in the D dorian and G myxolydian).
In short, follow your ears. The trick is to elegantly move the listener's ear from mode to mode without it sounding harsh. Like a good writer, you should be able to 'foreshadow' by playing non-diatonic passing notes so that when you change to the new mode it all makes sense ex-post.
hope this helps. Someone please correct me if I have made a mistake.
About the grammar, I don't buy it that typing "u" as opposed to "you" saves you much time. In any case, think of it this way: the utility in time saved you get from typing u instead of you is strictly smaller than the disutility you cause for others reading your bad-grammar post. Assuming that you are the typical internet user (that is, you derive utility from others' utility because it leads on average to more information on the internet), then there is no reason for you to type u instead of you. It also looks bad.
I think You're making it sound more complicated than it is.
A simple 3 note progression is not a realistic circumstance, the melody is what will ultimatiley define the mode, some modes can be assumed and if you want to use the variation (like phrygian / aolian) you should excentuate the main characteristic of the scale as well as the tonic.
If you want to play in an Ionian, you would use the tonic and excentuate the 3rd/7th, if you wanted to play a phrygian, you would use the tonic, and excentuate the 3rd/7th and the 2nd.
A simple 3 note progression is not a realistic circumstance, the melody is what will ultimatiley define the mode, some modes can be assumed and if you want to use the variation (like phrygian / aolian) you should excentuate the main characteristic of the scale as well as the tonic.
If you want to play in an Ionian, you would use the tonic and excentuate the 3rd/7th, if you wanted to play a phrygian, you would use the tonic, and excentuate the 3rd/7th and the 2nd.
Look, I also get really confused about the chord part.
Let me put it this way. C Ionian (major) is
C D E F G A B C
In the progression you would play C major E minor and G major right?
However, the E minor and G major sharp the F so that it shouldn't fit in the C ionian. You see what I mean? So shouldn't one play Gb7?. I don't have a good rule of thumb for creating chord progressions.
Now, regarding your earlier question "Is there like a set basis of which notes to accentuate for each one of them though?"
Well, I propose you think of modes in the following sense.
There are seven modes, so I propose you place them in three categories: Major, Minor, and mixed.
A major scale is characterized by W W H W W W H
The major mode is called Ionian.
Now, two other modes you would want to put in this category are the
Lydian and Myxolydian.
Why?
Because the Lydian is basically a Major scale where you keep all the relationships except that you sharp the fifth (making it awesome!).
Similarly, the Myxolydian keeps all the relationships of the major but flats the seventh (making it minorish).
The other group derives from the Aeolian (minor)
A minor scale is characterized by W H W W H W W
Now, to other modes you would want to put in this category are the
Dorian and Phrygian.
Why?
Because the Dorian is basically a minor scale where you keep all the relationships except that you sharp the sixth (making it a minor scale with a majoresque, uplifting moment)
Similarly, the Phyrgian keeps all the relationships of the major, bu flats the second (giving it a heavy start, which is why it is used so much in metal).
Lastly, there is the Locrian which fits in its own category. This is because it starts like a phrygian, sort of becomes a major, and ends like a minor. Weird.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
B h C w D w E h F w G w A w B
To convince yourself ot these relationships, sit down with PENCIL and PAPER and go
C w D w E h F w G w A w B h C
then go
A w B h C w D w E h F w G w A
convince yourself that to turn a minor into a major you have to sharp the 3rd, 6th and seventh (and backwards flat those)
Now, using the same relationships as above, start from one, name the mode, and see what it is doing to the scale.
Ask yourself, how do I go from a minor to a phrygian?
Answer: flat the second.
How do I go from a Lydian to a Myxolydian?
flath the fourth and the seventh
etc..
to pre-empt Crevis' summary: true, focus on the difference between major and minor, and then play with the second and fourth, for example, to get the lydian and phrygian.
Can someone help me understand the chord progressoin part? Do you just play the mode that relates to that PARTICULAR chord in the progression?
Let me put it this way. C Ionian (major) is
C D E F G A B C
In the progression you would play C major E minor and G major right?
However, the E minor and G major sharp the F so that it shouldn't fit in the C ionian. You see what I mean? So shouldn't one play Gb7?. I don't have a good rule of thumb for creating chord progressions.
Now, regarding your earlier question "Is there like a set basis of which notes to accentuate for each one of them though?"
Well, I propose you think of modes in the following sense.
There are seven modes, so I propose you place them in three categories: Major, Minor, and mixed.
A major scale is characterized by W W H W W W H
The major mode is called Ionian.
Now, two other modes you would want to put in this category are the
Lydian and Myxolydian.
Why?
Because the Lydian is basically a Major scale where you keep all the relationships except that you sharp the fifth (making it awesome!).
Similarly, the Myxolydian keeps all the relationships of the major but flats the seventh (making it minorish).
The other group derives from the Aeolian (minor)
A minor scale is characterized by W H W W H W W
Now, to other modes you would want to put in this category are the
Dorian and Phrygian.
Why?
Because the Dorian is basically a minor scale where you keep all the relationships except that you sharp the sixth (making it a minor scale with a majoresque, uplifting moment)
Similarly, the Phyrgian keeps all the relationships of the major, bu flats the second (giving it a heavy start, which is why it is used so much in metal).
Lastly, there is the Locrian which fits in its own category. This is because it starts like a phrygian, sort of becomes a major, and ends like a minor. Weird.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
B h C w D w E h F w G w A w B
To convince yourself ot these relationships, sit down with PENCIL and PAPER and go
C w D w E h F w G w A w B h C
then go
A w B h C w D w E h F w G w A
convince yourself that to turn a minor into a major you have to sharp the 3rd, 6th and seventh (and backwards flat those)
Now, using the same relationships as above, start from one, name the mode, and see what it is doing to the scale.
Ask yourself, how do I go from a minor to a phrygian?
Answer: flat the second.
How do I go from a Lydian to a Myxolydian?
flath the fourth and the seventh
etc..
to pre-empt Crevis' summary: true, focus on the difference between major and minor, and then play with the second and fourth, for example, to get the lydian and phrygian.
Can someone help me understand the chord progressoin part? Do you just play the mode that relates to that PARTICULAR chord in the progression?
The notes we are dealing with in the C major key are all naturals (no sharps or flats). They are:
C D E F G A B C
If you play a progression, you would play C major, E minor and G major.
C major is given
E minor scale: E F# G A B C D E
G major: (same) G A B C D E F# G
notice that both are utilizing F#'s instead of F (sharp, raise a tone, that is what sharp means).
So how do they fit the C major progression?
Should we not play Gb7 instead? (ie, G myxolydian; G A B C D E F G instead of the regular G major)
OR, does this really not matter since the relevant chord tones would not involve F#
ex:
E minor chord: E G B
G major chord: G B D
I hope this makes more sense. Thanks for the help.
C D E F G A B C
If you play a progression, you would play C major, E minor and G major.
C major is given
E minor scale: E F# G A B C D E
G major: (same) G A B C D E F# G
notice that both are utilizing F#'s instead of F (sharp, raise a tone, that is what sharp means).
So how do they fit the C major progression?
Should we not play Gb7 instead? (ie, G myxolydian; G A B C D E F G instead of the regular G major)
OR, does this really not matter since the relevant chord tones would not involve F#
ex:
E minor chord: E G B
G major chord: G B D
I hope this makes more sense. Thanks for the help.
I think I understand the chord/mode relationships for the most part. I'm just really trying to figure out how do you determine what the tonic is in a progression, like is it the first chord, the last chord? Here's some examples (assuming they're all in the same key)...
I-IV-V: is this a I ionian, IV lydian or V mixolydian mode?
ii-V: ii dorian? or V mixolydian?
iii-vii-V-I: iii phrygian? vii locrian? V mixolydian? I ionian?
I understand it 'could' be any of them. But what is the proper way to label the specific mode? The first chord?
Here's an example: Steve Vai- The Boy From Seattle. From what I remember the song is D and E pretty uch throughout. It says in the book its E mixolydian I believe. Why not D lydian?
I-IV-V: is this a I ionian, IV lydian or V mixolydian mode?
ii-V: ii dorian? or V mixolydian?
iii-vii-V-I: iii phrygian? vii locrian? V mixolydian? I ionian?
I understand it 'could' be any of them. But what is the proper way to label the specific mode? The first chord?
Here's an example: Steve Vai- The Boy From Seattle. From what I remember the song is D and E pretty uch throughout. It says in the book its E mixolydian I believe. Why not D lydian?
Originally Posted by Axayacatl
Look, I also get really confused about the chord part.
Let me put it this way. C Ionian (major) is
C D E F G A B C
In the progression you would play C major E minor and G major right?
However, the E minor and G major sharp the F so that it shouldn't fit in the C ionian. You see what I mean? So shouldn't one play Gb7?.
No.
You were considering playing the C Em and G chords..Em and G major chords do not have F# in them. Yes the scales of the same name do but not chords.
I think you need to take a step back learn how triads chords are created then learn to harmonise the major scale then hopefully you will hear the connection!!!
As for labelling a chord progression by calling it a name...I believe the way to look at it is the you have an overall Ket signature which is Ionian but when the scale you play over a particular chord can be approach 2 ways.
1) play same scale over all the chords eg. key is c major and your progresion is C F G Am so play C amjor for each chord target root notes of your chord so it gives it the flavour of the mode you are playing so it would be C ionian for c chord F lydian for F chord, G mixolydian for G chord then A natural for Am chord...safe approach.
2) you want the prgression to have a certain sound eg lydian.
use just major chords in your progression as lydian is a major based mode so ok you are not staying within the original key but adding new notes as you change chords...classic example of this is the intro to flying in a blue dream it is all lydian but he uses C lydian G lydian F lydian and Bb lydian with major based chords...ok not simple triads chords but major all the same.
Look, I also get really confused about the chord part.
Let me put it this way. C Ionian (major) is
C D E F G A B C
In the progression you would play C major E minor and G major right?
However, the E minor and G major sharp the F so that it shouldn't fit in the C ionian. You see what I mean? So shouldn't one play Gb7?.
No.
You were considering playing the C Em and G chords..Em and G major chords do not have F# in them. Yes the scales of the same name do but not chords.
I think you need to take a step back learn how triads chords are created then learn to harmonise the major scale then hopefully you will hear the connection!!!
As for labelling a chord progression by calling it a name...I believe the way to look at it is the you have an overall Ket signature which is Ionian but when the scale you play over a particular chord can be approach 2 ways.
1) play same scale over all the chords eg. key is c major and your progresion is C F G Am so play C amjor for each chord target root notes of your chord so it gives it the flavour of the mode you are playing so it would be C ionian for c chord F lydian for F chord, G mixolydian for G chord then A natural for Am chord...safe approach.
2) you want the prgression to have a certain sound eg lydian.
use just major chords in your progression as lydian is a major based mode so ok you are not staying within the original key but adding new notes as you change chords...classic example of this is the intro to flying in a blue dream it is all lydian but he uses C lydian G lydian F lydian and Bb lydian with major based chords...ok not simple triads chords but major all the same.
Without getting to indepth here cause Im at work - there is more than one way to visualize modality. I think you are trying to visualize it from a purely progressional standpoint and that is not necessarily the best way to go about it.
Take a step back, forget the progressions for a second, and look at it these two ways:
1. Relationship of a given mode to its Major (Ionian) and natural minor (Aeolian) counterparts. Ask yourself this question - are you comtemplating a relative modality (same key signature) - or a Parallel mode which will have accidentals based on the key signature. What is the overall tonality of the song you are playing over? - This will tell you more about what mode or modes you are actually playing than a simple progression/cadence situation.
2. Relationship key signature-wise to the actual chord (not chords) that you are soloing over at that given time period.
EX - You can be on a I chord in the key of G Major and swear you are playing A Dorian all day long - the reality is that to the listener, it sounds like G Major (Ionian) that somewhat desperately needs to resolve because of the compelling G Major tonality that lies beneath.
Bottom Line - Simplify your analysis down to a key signature vs. tonality vs. current static chord and I think you will see that this makes complete sense rather than all the grey areas you are contemplating.
Take a step back, forget the progressions for a second, and look at it these two ways:
1. Relationship of a given mode to its Major (Ionian) and natural minor (Aeolian) counterparts. Ask yourself this question - are you comtemplating a relative modality (same key signature) - or a Parallel mode which will have accidentals based on the key signature. What is the overall tonality of the song you are playing over? - This will tell you more about what mode or modes you are actually playing than a simple progression/cadence situation.
2. Relationship key signature-wise to the actual chord (not chords) that you are soloing over at that given time period.
EX - You can be on a I chord in the key of G Major and swear you are playing A Dorian all day long - the reality is that to the listener, it sounds like G Major (Ionian) that somewhat desperately needs to resolve because of the compelling G Major tonality that lies beneath.
Bottom Line - Simplify your analysis down to a key signature vs. tonality vs. current static chord and I think you will see that this makes complete sense rather than all the grey areas you are contemplating.
When you are dealing with progressions of triads or diads (like power chords), your choices are very open. Less notes "pre-chosen" by the harmony means more freedom.
In progression like F G C (IV-V-I) you could play any major mode over each chord, for example F ionian, G ionian and C ionian, and because the three modes are very close to each other it will work just fine. But if you want to go for a more simple way playing F lydian, G mixolydian and C ionian will work and will give the music a very strong C major feeling. you can go with any variation of this:
C ionian, F lydian, G mixolydian: C D E F G A B
F ionian, C mixolydian: F G A Bb C D E
G ionian, C lydian: G A B C D E F#
G lydian: G A B C# D E F#
F mixolydian: F G A Bb C D Eb
So if you want to go to the extreme in shaking the harmony with your modal movements you can play F mixolydian, G lydian and C ionian.
When you start to add more notes to the chords you will have less freedom y you want to play in a strict modal way.
Another thing you can do is use harmonic substitution in the modal context of a chord, by playing the mode based in note different to the root of the chord, for example playing over the C chord, E aeolian or G mixolidian, suggesting Cmaj7 and Cmaj9.
In progression like F G C (IV-V-I) you could play any major mode over each chord, for example F ionian, G ionian and C ionian, and because the three modes are very close to each other it will work just fine. But if you want to go for a more simple way playing F lydian, G mixolydian and C ionian will work and will give the music a very strong C major feeling. you can go with any variation of this:
C ionian, F lydian, G mixolydian: C D E F G A B
F ionian, C mixolydian: F G A Bb C D E
G ionian, C lydian: G A B C D E F#
G lydian: G A B C# D E F#
F mixolydian: F G A Bb C D Eb
So if you want to go to the extreme in shaking the harmony with your modal movements you can play F mixolydian, G lydian and C ionian.
When you start to add more notes to the chords you will have less freedom y you want to play in a strict modal way.
Another thing you can do is use harmonic substitution in the modal context of a chord, by playing the mode based in note different to the root of the chord, for example playing over the C chord, E aeolian or G mixolidian, suggesting Cmaj7 and Cmaj9.
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