[amanvai]

Hey guys,

There are several threads with information pertaining to the CITES rosewood issues, but I'm not too sure about a few things and was wondering if anyone could help me with some specific questions I have re traveling with an '88 Jem77FP (or any Jem for that matter):

1. As I know it, the ban now affects all types of rosewood, even though initially it was just Brazilian rosewood. Is this correct? Is there a different procedure when dealing with Brazilian rosewood?

2. Does the ban affect just commercial traffic of rosewood or does it also affect 'personal carry' items? ie. If I travel and bring my guitar along, do I have to have any paperwork etc the way I would have to if I were to ship the guitar?

3. As a follow up to the above, is there any paperwork necessary for traveling and touring with rosewood-fretboarded (wait, that's not a real word?) guitars?

I recently bought an '88 77FP and the guitar is sitting with a cousin of mine in the UK. I know I could obtain a CITES permit and have it shipped here to me in the US, but I'll likely be passing through and could pick it up and bring it over myself on the way back. I'm also concerned with the prospect of touring and traveling. This guitar will likely not tour with me, but a few other Jems might and they're all rosewood necks - not sure what type of rosewood exactly, though it seems the older ones (the '88 FP and an '89 RB) look like they have Brazilian rosewood, and the newer ones ('04 555 and '10 7V) look more like East Indian Rosewood.

Anyhow - that's that. If anyone has any insight it would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Rich]

There are good resources on Reverb but anything but Brazilian can be hand carried anywhere. You can also ship it to yourself, your brother, you can't ship something that is merchandise. Although there is plenty of cheating going on. But you can hand carry anything as long as it doesn't have any schedule 1, ivory, Brazilian, etc.

 

[IbaNose]

Actually you can carry restricted wood if it's a personal article. Here's the section that allows you to do so.

Article VII of the Convention
Section 3:
The provisions of Articles III, IV and V shall not apply to specimens that are personal or household effects

 

[amanvai]

There are good resources on Reverb but anything but Brazilian can be hand carried anywhere. You can also ship it to yourself, your brother, you can't ship something that is merchandise. Although there is plenty of cheating going on. But you can hand carry anything as long as it doesn't have any schedule 1, ivory, Brazilian, etc.

Thanks Rich - yeah I checked out the info on Reverb but couldn't figure out the hand-carry deal, or anything to do with Brazilian rosewood for that matter. So how would I get something with Brazilian across the pond? And then I'm assuming it's too annoying to travel or tour with?

Actually you can carry restricted wood if it's a personal article. Here's the section that allows you to do so.

Article VII of the Convention
Section 3:
The provisions of Articles III, IV and V shall not apply to specimens that are personal or household effects

Thanks for looking that up! So that means no matter what the wood is, I can hand-carry so long as it's personal and not intended for a sale etc?

 

[IbaNose]

Thanks Rich - yeah I checked out the info on Reverb but couldn't figure out the hand-carry deal, or anything to do with Brazilian rosewood for that matter. So how would I get something with Brazilian across the pond? And then I'm assuming it's too annoying to travel or tour with?

Thanks for looking that up! So that means no matter what the wood is, I can hand-carry so long as it's personal and not intended for a sale etc?

Yes, carry a copy of the section of the article with you. Not many customs officers are well versed with the CITES regulations.

 

[Rich]

https://www.fws.gov/international/p...appendix-II-timber-listings-December-2016.pdf

Conversely, musicians traveling abroad with their instruments for non-commercial purposes including, but not limited to, personal use, paid or unpaid performance, display, or competition may qualify for what is called a personal effects exemption under CITES (i.e., exempt from requiring a CITES document) as long as the instrument is carried in personal accompanying baggage and it contains less than 10 kg (22 lbs.) of CITES-listed rosewood, excluding Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia *****). Instruments that contain more than 10 kg of CITES-listed wood, with the exception Brazilian rosewood, may qualify as a personal effect under CITES and may not require a CITES document. Please consult with the CITES Management Authorities of both origin and destination countries to determine if they implement these requirements similarly.

With any Ibanez it's not going to matter since they've never used any Brazilian I'm aware of.

 

[IbaNose]

Unless they’re running DNA tests, how will they even know it’s Brazilian? Hmm, maybe if it’s sporting a sexy g-string. Hey, wait a minute...

 

[Rich]

They don't have to scientifically determine it is, all they have to do is think it is and your world gets turned upside down. So if you're traveling with an RBM2 make sure you have a catalog with you that declares the neck is Bolivian.

 

[jemsite]

um.. there is no dna testing for old wood. you'd a perfect match against known samples (impossible) or possibly a mass spectrometer and one of a few worldwide experts again most likely impossible.

realistically no guitar made after ~68-69 would have "Brazilian rosewood" since it was banned what in 67

another absurd bureaucratic "law" simply to appease the uninformed.

 

[Rich]

This is as good a place as any, but Ibanez is called ALOT with people asking what species their rosewood is so they can file for permits and the blunt truth is before a permit was required to import it into Japan or China, or anywhere, they could have cared less what species it was and never kept any records. They never procured the woods, that's the factories job. Since Brazilian was long banned and if any was on the market it was stupid expensive they know they never used any of that. The RBM2 was the only guitar they ever built the complete neck from rosewood they specified it's origin. They have specified Indian rosewood in the past on certain J Customs IIRC, otherwise they have no idea what any of it is.

 

[Rich]

What is absolutely absurd is anybody thinking illegal logging isn't undertaken in Brazil and has never stopped, and there will always be nefarious buyers that will take the risk to buy it [cough Gibson cough]

Does anybody really think China and Russia care less about importing woods the rest of the world deems illegal?

 

[amanvai]

They don't have to scientifically determine it is, all they have to do is think it is and your world gets turned upside down. So if you're traveling with an RBM2 make sure you have a catalog with you that declares the neck is Bolivian.

Right - that's what I'm worried about. You get someone in a bad mood or someone that maybe doesn't know or care that it isn't and that's that - guitar gone.

This is as good a place as any, but Ibanez is called ALOT with people asking what species their rosewood is so they can file for permits and the blunt truth is before a permit was required to import it into Japan or China, or anywhere, they could have cared less what species it was and never kept any records. They never procured the woods, that's the factories job. Since Brazilian was long banned and if any was on the market it was stupid expensive they know they never used any of that. The RBM2 was the only guitar they ever built the complete neck from rosewood they specified it's origin. They have specified Indian rosewood in the past on certain J Customs IIRC, otherwise they have no idea what any of it is.

So then sorry if this is a stupid question but - what rosewoods are on the fretboards on my '88 FP and '89 RB, and how can I certify or prove that? Is the safest solution here just to get a CITES permit?

What is absolutely absurd is anybody thinking illegal logging isn't undertaken in Brazil and has never stopped, and there will always be nefarious buyers that will take the risk to buy it [cough Gibson cough]

Does anybody really think China and Russia care less about importing woods the rest of the world deems illegal?

Wonder if that affects policy, since policy doesn't seem to affect it...

 

[Rich]

If you read it, they never cared and no records were ever kept.

It's a law, and like any other law just because a law exist it doesn't mean it won't be broken. Murder is against the law but somehow plenty still happen, but if there was no law against it there would be 100 times more. Laws are a deterrent, how well they work depends on how well they're enforced, policed, and how steep the penalties are.

 

[Formerly Given To Fly]

The Ibanez Artist 1505 has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard.
Traditionally, Brazilian rosewood was always considered the top tier rosewood in guitar building. The alternative was Indian rosewood. If Ibanez failed to specify the type of rosewood they used, they were not using Brazilian rosewood because, as far as we are concerned, it has always been too expensive not to mention it.

 

[IbaNose]

They don't have to scientifically determine it is, all they have to do is think it is and your world gets turned upside down. So if you're traveling with an RBM2 make sure you have a catalog with you that declares the neck is Bolivian.

This is excellent advice.