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Has anyone else noticed this? There seems to be a tendency for musicians to talk around music by discussing guitars, microphones, amps, audio interfaces, etc. On actual music websites, the articles tend to be political but applied to the field of music. So I decided to head over to the audiophile section of the internet to get a different perspective. I found this article which was rather eye-opening:


In this article, there is a lot of talk about gear (or systems) but also how emotionally charged people are about their systems. They listen to music but it seems they mostly talk around it, similar to musicians.

When people criticize music other people like, emotions run high and generally result in hurt feelings. This is why we talk around music, instead of about music. Does this sound like your experience?

This is a really good recording of this piece so I thought I would share it. Agua e Vinho means "Water and Wine." I'm curious what you think about it?

 

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Guitar nerds just love talking kit?

This is 'greasy kid's stuff,' mix 12, ground zero, with the melody guitars
Up .3, bass up .4, kick down .5, overheads up .4, less gate on the snare
And 3db added at 10k on the pultecs to the rhythm guitars. we're rolling..
 

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Is it also because the music itself can be so subjective?

I have a connection with people here via a shared love of high end ibanez.
I don't really play much shred although I listen to it alongside a really wide variety of stuff.

But I'm more likely to be playing post rock/drones, Okinawan folk rock, Japanese style math rock or hendrix covers than anything from David Lee Roth's back catalogue... (Yes all on the same JS1000)
 

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Is it also because the music itself can be so subjective?

I have a connection with people here via a shared love of high end ibanez.
I don't really play much shred although I listen to it alongside a really wide variety of stuff.

But I'm more likely to be playing post rock/drones, Okinawan folk rock, Japanese style math rock or hendrix covers than anything from David Lee Roth's back catalogue... (Yes all on the same JS1000)
I think this is exactly the right answer. I play an Ibanez JEM, you play an Ibanez JEM. I like Swirls, you like Swirls.

17145


However people will get into online fist fights over whether the exact same Periphery track, that they both love, would in fact be better without vocals...

The gear unites us, the music seems to separate us!!!???!!!
 

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I think a lot of the high strung opinions and attitudes in online forums are due to the "disconnected" nature of the internet, as opposed to when you are talking directly to a person or to a group in person. Conversations just don't seem to go smoothly when tone of voice and facial expressions are not present. Much easier for people to make rude or contentious remarks when they are not face to face too...

I don't own a Jem or Pia, but love older Ibanez guitars... So I come here because it is a "nice" forum without hotheads and political arguments, but also home to many experienced guitar players/techs/collectors, etc. I'm no shredder either, not because I don't like it... I just have no speed! lol... I play and listen to a bit of everything, old and new, whatever sounds good, synthwave to classical to blues to metal to old country and very old 20's/30's western music.

As far as the "Agua de Vinho" piece... Very nice! You just can't beat the honest sound of a nylon string classical guitar. I really appreciate their interesting chord forms/inversions... not found in my old Mel Bay chord encyclopedia, lol! My mom and dad just came to visit and he brought his old Alvarez classical. We sat around the campfire and he played and sang old western songs, 60's 70's classics, etc... Some of my kids and the neighbors came over, in the country so only about 10 people, but it was amazing to see how captivated everyone was, old and young. Just silence and the fire crackling while he played and sang. In-person music is just magical and a bit of that in lost in the modern internet age. My kids are in to euro-metal, pop, whatever else the kids listen to these days. But it was magical to see them recording old classics done right with a tear in their eye... :)
 

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I think this is exactly the right answer. I play an Ibanez JEM, you play an Ibanez JEM. I like Swirls, you like Swirls.

View attachment 17145

However people will get into online fist fights over whether the exact same Periphery track, that they both love, would in fact be better without vocals...

The gear unites us, the music seems to separate us!!!???!!!
Besties! Although mine is a floral not a swirl... :)

Don't think i even know periphery!
Can i interest you in my favorite rarities from some of the Godspeed you! Black Emperor / Constellation side projects? No?!
Buckethead Pike number 368?? No?
Then gear it is...
 

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I also think that the gear talk here is more than the music talk because music isn't a talk thing. It works best with sound and interaction. E.g. music theory discussion and song breakdowns seem to be flourishing on YouTube. With audio.

Plus we guitarists often lack a shared vocabulary. Everyone can chat about a neat swirl or a great new pedal. Only a smaller subset can talk their way through modes, harmonic theory, sub dominants, cadences and all that stuff without getting jolly confusing and alienating those who only know enough to jam along by ear and never took a single theory class.
 

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Good comments! You guys make good points.

Let me put it another way: “Talking about music feels similar to talking about politics. At some point, it becomes personal.”
Politics usually starts out being personal. That is the closest analogy I can think of at the moment.
Haha good analogy.
And After 16 years I still come back here precisely because it's one of the few places left on the internet free from politics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
- People want others to validate their own purchases
The validation idea is interesting. When talking about music it is possible to fall into a "validation trap." A long time ago, I was talking with a co-worker about bands we liked. We both like Animals as Leaders. We both liked Periphery. The third band was one that I think I had heard of but I had never heard their music. My response was something like "I've never really heard anything by them." My coworker's response was "Are you like a snob or something?" I had fallen into a "validation trap" by not validating his appreciation for this band. It really caught me off guard which is why I call it a "trap." Fortunately, I had my Music Snob License with me (available at the DMV, passed the test...on my 2nd try 😞 ) and everything was fine. 🤨

When talking about gear, validation usually comes in form of compliments, and people like compliments. :) Worst case scenario, "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all" works well on gear forums.
 

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Music snobs I do not get... Music is so personal. Gear snobbing has been around in the audio world for a long time though... Reminds me of the old Steve Martin comedy bit "Googlephonics". I had to tolerate an obnoxious audio snob coworker for eons until he got canned. You know... genuine baltic birch driver cabinets for his TAD 12's, Klipsch horns, all run by class A amps, granite slab turntable, and on and on. Don't get me wrong, it sounded fantastic! Especially with quality recorded music like Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, or smooth jazz. But then he had over $50k in it.
 

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^^ Sounds like the Baltic birch was sawn under the full moon and the granite turntable worked by dwarvish masons...:sneaky: .

Music snobbery is, well, whatever. You better be prepared to back up the assertions with evidence and well reasoned arguments :cool:. I do think there's a line somewhere, like all the stuff in the charts which is auto-tuned to make Jeebus weep, uses the same chord progressions and is written by the same committee of a dozen people is moronic and designed to be safe, money-making stuff. Something like that is more of a product of the socio-economic conditions we're in, rather than trying to be an artistic statement which will always find relevance in people's lives. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something in my analogue man cave.

That's a nice arrangement of Agua e Vinho in the op, I'm mostly familiar with it as a solo piece. As well as football, Brazilians do guitar on a super saiyan level. I guess most people know about Mateus Asato and Lari Basilio due to their online profiles. They are indeed great players, but Brazilian guitar has a lengthy and rich history. As a bit of a nod to this forum, there is an old tradition of the 7 string guitar in Brazil, which was probably brought there by Russian immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th century. Oh, and it's nylon strings, of course (I'd encourage any guitar player to check out Yamandú Costa - smokin').
 

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^^ Totally, he's the daddy. And Baden Powell, of course.

Great to see other folks familiar with/appreciative of this music. I like Rafael Rabello as well – gone too soon, alas. I was listening to 'Rafael Sete Cordas' the other day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
FireEagle's former co-worker sounds to me like an audiophile.
^^ Sounds like the Baltic birch was sawn under the full moon and the granite turntable worked by dwarvish masons...:sneaky: .

Music snobbery is, well, whatever. You better be prepared to back up the assertions with evidence and well reasoned arguments :cool:. I do think there's a line somewhere, like all the stuff in the charts which is auto-tuned to make Jeebus weep, uses the same chord progressions and is written by the same committee of a dozen people is moronic and designed to be safe, money-making stuff. Something like that is more of a product of the socio-economic conditions we're in, rather than trying to be an artistic statement which will always find relevance in people's lives. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something in my analogue man cave.

That's a nice arrangement of Agua e Vinho in the op, I'm mostly familiar with it as a solo piece. As well as football, Brazilians do guitar on a super saiyan level. I guess most people know about Mateus Asato and Lari Basilio due to their online profiles. They are indeed great players, but Brazilian guitar has a lengthy and rich history. As a bit of a nod to this forum, there is an old tradition of the 7 string guitar in Brazil, which was probably brought there by Russian immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th century. Oh, and it's nylon strings, of course (I'd encourage any guitar player to check out Yamandú Costa - smokin').
Apple is adding some features to Apple Music that have some people (especially tech reviewers on YouTube) confused: About lossless audio in Apple Music
I find this slightly weird because in order to be a tech YouTuber you have to deal bit depth and sample rate in order to create videos and post them on YouTube. Regardless, there seems to be a consensus that a person who listens to lossless audio on headphones with a "wire" qualifies as an audiophile. They are also disappointed that lossless audio will not play back through Apple's wireless headphones/earbuds. It will be lossy. Fair enough. What I do not understand is when people decide they can not hear a difference before they have had the opportunity to listen and find out. Audiophiles are basically the polar opposite and I think they might have more to offer the music listening community if it were not for their quirks, dwarvish masons, etc.

Agua e Vinho happens to be the one Gismonti song I like. Perhaps it was a bad example to post. Brazil certainly produces incredible players. I am not just saying that either, I went to school with some of them.
 

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FireEagle's former co-worker sounds to me like an audiophile.


Apple is adding some features to Apple Music that have some people (especially tech reviewers on YouTube) confused: About lossless audio in Apple Music
I find this slightly weird because in order to be a tech YouTuber you have to deal bit depth and sample rate in order to create videos and post them on YouTube. Regardless, there seems to be a consensus that a person who listens to lossless audio on headphones with a "wire" qualifies as an audiophile. They are also disappointed that lossless audio will not play back through Apple's wireless headphones/earbuds. It will be lossy. Fair enough. What I do not understand is when people decide they can not hear a difference before they have had the opportunity to listen and find out. Audiophiles are basically the polar opposite and I think they might have more to offer the music listening community if it were not for their quirks, dwarvish masons, etc.

Agua e Vinho happens to be the one Gismonti song I like. Perhaps it was a bad example to post. Brazil certainly produces incredible players. I am not just saying that either, I went to school with some of them.
You are correct... total audiophile. I can appreciate high quality music and critical listening, it has it's time and place for sure. Nothing sounds better than a high quality Steely Dan album in a room set up for music, where you can hear every nuance and complex harmonic. This is where vinyl really shines, but cd quality is fine too. Practically speaking though, most of my listening is done at work (background music, usually instrumental) or in my car commuting (anything goes... \m/). Neither place is ideal for listening, so mp3's or other "ripped" formats work fine 99% of the time. My ears have taken too much damage through the years anyway... Loud concerts, shooting guns, racing motorcycles, etc.💀
 

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I guess one issue is that most people listen to music on their phones, so music with more complex harmony won't quite come across (hence Apple's lossless thing?), and maybe it's why so much mainstream music is drums and bass focused with vocals and some synth stuff on top.

I don't have much of a sound system myself, and I do find it frustrating when listening to some things. I wish I could listen to early Queen albums through a real rig, for instance, or certain multi-instrumental groups like Eluveitie or Wagakki Band.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You are correct... total audiophile. I can appreciate high quality music and critical listening, it has it's time and place for sure. Nothing sounds better than a high quality Steely Dan album in a room set up for music, where you can hear every nuance and complex harmonic. This is where vinyl really shines, but cd quality is fine too. Practically speaking though, most of my listening is done at work (background music, usually instrumental) or in my car commuting (anything goes... \m/).
I have never heard high quality vinyl in room designed for music. I believe you when you say that is “where vinyl really shines.” I would love to hear someone’s system someday. ;)

I guess one issue is that most people listen to music on their phones, so music with more complex harmony won't quite come across (hence Apple's lossless thing?), and maybe it's why so much mainstream music is drums and bass focused with vocals and some synth stuff on top.

I don't have much of a sound system myself, and I do find it frustrating when listening to some things. I wish I could listen to early Queen albums through a real rig, for instance, or certain multi-instrumental groups like Eluveitie or Wagakki Band.
I actually listen to music/news/movies on my iPhone using the built in speakers. The human voice comes through really well and other aspects of the sound sometimes do too. If I’m listening to something I’m familiar with, it works. It does not work for new music or music I want to hear accurately. The speakers can only do so much.

Apple hardware that is not a computer use D/A converters that can playback lossless audio up to 24 bit/48kHz through the built-in speakers or the headphone jack. Computers can playback lossless audio at 24 bit/96kHz. The reason Apple headphones do not support lossless audio is because the Lightning connector has it’s own D/A converter which adds an extra conversion step which makes the audio lossy. If you connect an audio interface to an Apple computer or phone the interface takes over and you are much less limited.

You mentioned a possible reason on why mainstream music is the way it is. I have no answers. There is a song that makes me think mainstream music needs some help. I won’t put a link to it, I’ll just give you the title and artists that you can copy and paste into YouTube: Cardi B - WAP feat. Meghan Thee Stallion (Official Music Video)
I mean.....the lyrics in the video are from the “clean” version of the song. There is no clean video. Why is Kylie Jenner in the video? She walks down a hallway and opens a door. I guess like my inappropriate sex-themed music to have a little more integrity...
 
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