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post #1 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Music Piracy

I moved this from the original thread as I had sadly Hijacked Craigs album release post. Sorry mate!


Drew,

I do see your point about using piracy as a way to promote your music and work with it rather than against it... but.... and this is a huge BUT, it opens the door to all sorts of issues. Its Theft. people don't see it that way because there is no physical taking of anything so they walk away with a clear conscience. Each album downloaded is the same as stealing it from the shelf in a shop in my eyes. Now if someone stole a CD from the shelf, do we expect the owner to turn a blind eye in the hopes the guy stealing it will enjoy it, share it with mates and hopefully one of them will come back and actually buy the next album? No, its a crime. I think we need to stop pretending piracy is a valid form of sharing, cause its not. Theres no control but artists, the people downloading it have no respect for you or your music otherwise they would buy it... lets face it, we all have 'clips' online where they can listen, and see if they like it before buying it. My bottom line is, If you don't want to pay for it, you shouldn't get to have it. Its not a charity, and I don't really care if little Billy the music pirate half way round the world gets my album and shares it with his mates. The exposure doesn't matter to me, I don't care if I get rich or famous or it goes viral... I want to be respected for what I do... I don't work for free... and I doubt anyone reading this would be going to work next week if they knew they weren't getting paid. Yes I love music, yes I enjoy making it, and I do give a fair amount away... but its my choice to do so, and when that choice is taken away, its been stolen regardless of the benefits and drawbacks of piracy, its been stolen. And in my eyes thats a crime.
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post #2 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

I do agree with you Drew, that there are a lot more positives to the net than negatives... otherwise I wouldn't be doing it, but we have all heard it before 'there no money in music anymore'... and there is a lot of truth to this... big artists with big fan bases are touring more dues to the decline in album sales. People use to cue outside record stores when a new album came out, they'd read the cover back to back, who engineered it, who played on it, etc they were true fans... now people buy (or pirate!) track 12 from iTunes and don't really care anymore. We live in a world now where kids don't know or care who Jim Morrison is but can tell you lots of useless Kardashian facts. Like you said, adapt with the time... which I guess we all must...I guests maybe reality would kick in for you if you realised you album had been downloaded 100,000 times and at say $20 a CD you'd lost out on $2,000,000 in revenue?
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post #3 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

But to show I can move with the times... heres my new album, on Bandcamp for $1. Pay more if you want, its up to you. enjoy!

https://seanbodley.bandcamp.com/album/pitchblack
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post #4 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 05:19 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

No, you're totally misunderstanding me, dude.

All I'm saying is this - piracy happens. You can get pissed off about it and complain about how hard it is being an independent musician "given the current state of the music industry," or you can try to adjust to the changing landscape and the way distribution is changing - NOT by looking at piracy as a source of promotion - but by looking at the same technology that allows piracy to occur as a way to also build deeper relationships with your fans and connect with people you would never be able to before.

I'm just going to repost this here, since you seem to have missed it in the last thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean777 View Post
You make feel differently when you put months into an album, spend a lot of $ into it and have it given away to people who aren't real fans, would never pay for it...but just take it cause it's on offer....I doubt they will buy my next album...just wait for the chance to steal it again.they aren't the ones I make music for thank god, some people will buy it even if they know it's for free on the internet somewhere. To them I say thanks for the support, and the music is for them.
Sean, you realize I released an album in January, right? That I'd been recording since 2010 and have been writing for since, oh, the oldest song dates back to 2000? And that I paid for out of pocket, myself? We're not talking months, we're talking almost my entire adult life, and it's being hosted on Russian free MP3 download sites as we speak. And, at the end of the day, there's not much I can do about that, so you can either choose to make peace with it or, oh, pull a Metallica and start suing anyone you can prove is sharing your album. I chose the former.

The reality is there is always going to be some piracy, and there are always going to be people willing to pay for music. Your job as an artist, if you expect to make a living doing that, is to connect with as many of the latter group as you can and encourage them to check your music out and potentially purchase it, and hope that over time and with subsequent releases maybe some of the former will decide that your music speaks to them and it's worth spending money on. Or, barring that, to connect with a large enough number of people that some percentage of them will decide that your album is worth taking a chance on, and hope that by sheer numbers you can generate sales.

So, I don't think you understand what I'm suggesting. The internet may allow people to pirate music easily, but it also allows near-instantaneous communication all over the world. Hell, you're in Australia, aren't you? In the pre-internet age, not only is it highly unlikely you'd have even been able to make your album, but there's no way in hell we'd ever be having this conversation. That's the good part of the internet. It may make it easier to illegally download a CD, but it also makes it a lot easier for you to get to know other musicians with similar interests all over the world, and some of them will likely think, "hey, this guy's music is awesome, I should buy it!" or "hey, this guy's pretty damned cool, and Ive enjoyed shooting the **** with him over the years, I really ought to buy his album." I'll hazard a guess that while a bunch of people bought my album because they liked what music they've heard, a bunch bought it simply because they've known me over the 'net for years and wanted to support the project - also, the two aren't mutually exclusive. And, when people start checking your music out, some of them will tell their friends, and some of them will tell THEIR friends, etc. At the very least, a buddy in Chicago got a couple people to buy my album off iTunes simply by playing it in the guitar shop he worked at and a few people wanted to know who it was.

That points to another thing that's changed for the better. Distribution is also way easier than it's ever been - my physical album can be bought through CD Baby, Amazon, and one or two other spots, but you can also grab it digitally through iTunes and a number of other stores, and the nice part about digital music, is that while it opens the door to piracy, duplication costs are zero so if I sell a hundred digital copies or a hundred thousand, the production costs don't change.

So, that's what I'm trying to suggest - complaining isn't going to change anything, at least not until you have the media pull of a Taylor Swift. You can complain and get nowhere, or you can adapt to the changed landscape, and if you have a good enough quality product, you can get it to sell.
I'm not saying "embrace piracy" and frankly if you're reading my posts in Craig's thread and coming away with that impression, I'm the tiniest bit offended. I'm saying that you can't just sit there and complain about "the state of the music industry today" and make excuses, you have to try to adapt to the industry as it changes. The internet allows piracy, yes... But, it also allows you to connect with musicians all over the world and gives you a distribution network that a guy in your shoes would have killed for 15 or 20 years ago.

You're looking at this like you recorded an album, so the world owes you people to buy it and if they're not, that's the industry's fault. I don't think that's true. You created an album, and you now have to convince people that it's worth their time to check it out. Yes, some of those people will pirate it, and yes, that's theft. But, a whole bunch will buy it too, because clearly people are still buying music. Piracy isn't going away any time soon, and if you're directing your energy into complaining about it, then you're not actually doing anything to help yourself.

So, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop pretending I'm in favor of piracy - I'm not. I'm also not in favor of a whole bunch of other things I have no control over, however, and I've found that the less time I spend complaining about them and the more time I spend dealing with them, ultimately the happier and more successful I'll be. Here I'm clearly not just talking about music.
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post #5 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 05:27 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

I'll repost this, again, too, because this is the point I'm trying to make, as succulently as I can say it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Piracy is a thing, always will be, and it's something you have to work around as a musician. I think the best way to combat it is by staying active in forums like this one, building relationships with other people, getting to know them, being part of a community, and having people want to pay for your album.
I literally have no idea where you can go from that to "piracy is a way to promote your work."
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post #6 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Lets agree to disagree on a few points... to be honest I really can't be bothered wasting any more time on this piracy stuff... steal it, buy it, each to their own. I know I prefer to pay for what I have.
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post #7 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 06:00 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean777 View Post
Lets agree to disagree on a few points... to be honest I really can't be bothered wasting any more time on this piracy stuff... steal it, buy it, each to their own. I know I prefer to pay for what I have.
And NOW you want to drop it.

Listen, you're insinuating I'm somehow pro-piracy. I'm not. I AM, however, saying that the music industry today is a very different place than it was in 1995, and you can either complain about that, or you can direct your energy to leveraging some of those new opportunities that today's music industry affords you that didn't exist 20 years ago. I'd say the majority of the albums I've sold are to people all over the world who I've met over the internet, which is the other side of how the industry has changed in the digital world.

We're in a niche market, playing instrumental rock, and while that limits the broad appeal of the music we write, it also has the advantage of (especially in the wake of the rise of the internet) offering a pretty tight-knit community of like-minded musicians willing to support their own. You're complaining about the negatives, and I'm suggesting that if instead you started focusing a bit more on the positives then maybe you'd be a bit better off.
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post #8 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
And NOW you want to drop it.

Listen, you're insinuating I'm somehow pro-piracy. I'm not. I AM, however, saying that the music industry today is a very different place than it was in 1995, and you can either complain about that, or you can direct your energy to leveraging some of those new opportunities that today's music industry affords you that didn't exist 20 years ago.

We're in a niche market, playing instrumental rock, and while that limits the broad appeal of the music we write, it also has the advantage of (especially in the wake of the rise of the internet) offering a pretty tight-knit community of like-minded musicians willing to support their own. You're complaining about the negatives, and I'm suggesting that if instead you started focusing a bit more on the positives then maybe you'd be a bit better off.

You have TOTALLY missed my point. But thats fine.
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post #9 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 07:30 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

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You have TOTALLY missed my point. But thats fine.
Ok, so what was your point? I absolutely want to understand it, and right now, if it's something other than "piracy is bad" (which I think no one disagrees with), then I don't.

Last edited by Drew; 12-01-2015 at 07:36 PM.
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post #10 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Ok, so what was your point? I absolutely want to understand it, and right now, if it's something other than "piracy is bad" (which I think no one disagrees with), then I don't.
Yeah, lets just leave it as 'Piracy is bad'
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post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 10:08 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean777 View Post
Yeah, lets just leave it as 'Piracy is bad'
Seriously, man - did you have a point over and above that? Because if so I'd, no joke, zero sarcasm, love to hear it. This is a discussion forum, we're all here to share ideas, and you clearly thought this conversation was important enough to have it's own thread, so I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.
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post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-01-2015, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Seriously, man - did you have a point over and above that? Because if so I'd, no joke, zero sarcasm, love to hear it. This is a discussion forum, we're all here to share ideas, and you clearly thought this conversation was important enough to have it's own thread, so I'd love to better understand the point you're trying to make.
I didn't really feel it needed an entire thread, but felt a bit guilty as it had robbed Craig form his moment in the spotlight with his new album. My view is purely that piracy is bad for music. Ill leave it at that.
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post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 01:08 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

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I didn't really feel it needed an entire thread, but felt a bit guilty as it had robbed Craig form his moment in the spotlight with his new album. My view is purely that piracy is bad for music. Ill leave it at that.
So, I'm not misunderstanding you at all, then. Nor am I questioning that - piracy is absolutely a problem for artists.

I think you're misunderstanding me, though, because you seem to think this is a conversation over whether or not piracy is a good thing, which we both agree it isn't. So, let me try again:

The thing with piracy is, it doesn't matter if we think it's good or bad, because it's happening and it's outside our control. I think people voting for Donald Trump is bad, too, but 20-something percent of Republican voters are indicating that they're going to do it anyway, and what I think doesn't change that. Piracy exists, and we live in a world where it's happening.

Over and above that, piracy isn't a new threat. Every wave of technological progress has allowed privacy. In 1995, people weren't illegally downloading mp3s... But the record industry was concerned about the availability of CD-R drives and how that was hurting album sales. Before that, it was cassette tapes, and before that 8 track tapes. Heck, radio broadcasts didn't exactly get a warm reception from the industry either until distribution rights got sorted out. Technology has always been seen as a threat to copyright holders.

So, if piracy isn't new, then if you ask yourself what's different this time that makes it "more" of a risk, it's not the piracy (which has always existed) and it's not the ability to make a very high quality digital copy (which has existed since CD-R drives became widespread) - rather, what changed is we now have a massive interconnected communication network (aka - "the internet") that allows people all over the world to share information with each other, including music files that they haven't paid for. It's not that piracy is a new thing; it's that the scope of one's ability to share illegally pirated music has increased, from your buddy's CD collection in 1995 to all of the global users of some p2p network in 2015.

And, all I'm trying to make you see, is that while the way this has facilitated piracy is not a good thing for artists, the way it's facilitated communication in general is a very, very, very good thing. The internet allows people to share files illegally all over the world, but they also are just as capable of sharing any other sort of information, including, "hey, check out this guy Sean's new album, here's the single on YouTube and if you like it you can buy it on Bandcamp!"

Over and above that, that same level of communication allows you to interact, globally, with people buying your album rather easily. And, in my experience, people are way LESS likely to pirate an album of someone they feel like they know personally than some anonymous guitarist they don't really know anything about.

So, the point I'm trying to make is that saying "piracy is bad for musicians" is, one, nothing new and nothing that hasn't been the case since very close to the advent of recorded music as a medium, and two, pointless because it doesn't really change the fact that piracy will continue (though, interestingly, it's dropping as legal streaming alternatives have become more prevalent, which will be an interesting trend to watch). This is a board of musicians, a whole bunch of us also write and record music, we all get it. Complaining about piracy is a waste of time. I'd direct all that negativity and effort into instead using the same network that allows piracy to occur on a global scale to instead reach out and connect with existing fans, look for new fans, and build stronger relationships with the, to encourage them to check out your music, and if they like it, buy it, because buying music is the right thing to do.
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post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 01:11 PM
 
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Re: Music Piracy

The real problem you should be addressing, Sean, is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean777 View Post
I guests maybe reality would kick in for you if you realised you album had been downloaded 100,000 times and at say $20 a CD you'd lost out on $2,000,000 in revenue?
Be honest - the fact of the matter is you (and I) don't HAVE 100,000 people interested in listening to our music. Use the net to change that, rather than complaining about the handful of people who have downloaded your album without paying for it. The potential is there, if you're willing to try, and maybe if you work hard enough then 100,000 people WILL want to check out your album, and while not all of them are going to pay, a significant portion will purchase it legally; more so if they think you're a cool guy they want to see succeed.
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post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 12-02-2015, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Music Piracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew View Post
The real problem you should be addressing, Sean, is this:



Be honest - the fact of the matter is you (and I) don't HAVE 100,000 people interested in listening to our music. Use the net to change that, rather than complaining about the handful of people who have downloaded your album without paying for it. The potential is there, if you're willing to try, and maybe if you work hard enough then 100,000 people WILL want to check out your album, and while not all of them are going to pay, a significant portion will purchase it legally; more so if they think you're a cool guy they want to see succeed.
Your completely missing the point. It'd doesn't matter if you sell a million albums or 1 album... or wether your me or Kanye West... its theft. It doesn't matter what benefits you see in it, or the up side etc.. its theft. Thats my point. You can't justify a crime based on your own ideals of what benefits it may have after the crime... Thats like me saying 'hey if you get robbed and they take your TV, least your insurance will get you a new TV huh?'... the point is, its a criminal act... trying to work within the work of piracy is saying that its ok to do it and you will make the best of it, because your a small artist and for you, you see more benefit than harm.. but that is just your view... the fact is. Its a crime.
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