I do agree with you Drew, that there are a lot more positives to the net than negatives... otherwise I wouldn't be doing it, but we have all heard it before 'there no money in music anymore'... and there is a lot of truth to this... big artists with big fan bases are touring more dues to the decline in album sales. People use to cue outside record stores when a new album came out, they'd read the cover back to back, who engineered it, who played on it, etc they were true fans... now people buy (or pirate!) track 12 from iTunes and don't really care anymore. We live in a world now where kids don't know or care who Jim Morrison is but can tell you lots of useless Kardashian facts. Like you said, adapt with the time... which I guess we all must...I guests maybe reality would kick in for you if you realised you album had been downloaded 100,000 times and at say $20 a CD you'd lost out on $2,000,000 in revenue?

 

The real problem you should be addressing, Sean, is this:

I guests maybe reality would kick in for you if you realised you album had been downloaded 100,000 times and at say $20 a CD you'd lost out on $2,000,000 in revenue?

Be honest - the fact of the matter is you (and I) don't HAVE 100,000 people interested in listening to our music. Use the net to change that, rather than complaining about the handful of people who have downloaded your album without paying for it. The potential is there, if you're willing to try, and maybe if you work hard enough then 100,000 people WILL want to check out your album, and while not all of them are going to pay, a significant portion will purchase it legally; more so if they think you're a cool guy they want to see succeed.

 

But to show I can move with the times... heres my new album, on Bandcamp for $1. Pay more if you want, its up to you. enjoy!

https://seanbodley.bandcamp.com/album/pitchblack

 

No, you're totally misunderstanding me, dude. :lol:

All I'm saying is this - piracy happens. You can get pissed off about it and complain about how hard it is being an independent musician "given the current state of the music industry," or you can try to adjust to the changing landscape and the way distribution is changing - NOT by looking at piracy as a source of promotion - but by looking at the same technology that allows piracy to occur as a way to also build deeper relationships with your fans and connect with people you would never be able to before.

I'm just going to repost this here, since you seem to have missed it in the last thread:

You make feel differently when you put months into an album, spend a lot of $ into it and have it given away to people who aren't real fans, would never pay for it...but just take it cause it's on offer....I doubt they will buy my next album...just wait for the chance to steal it again.they aren't the ones I make music for thank god, some people will buy it even if they know it's for free on the internet somewhere. To them I say thanks for the support, and the music is for them.

Sean, you realize I released an album in January, right? That I'd been recording since 2010 and have been writing for since, oh, the oldest song dates back to 2000? And that I paid for out of pocket, myself? We're not talking months, we're talking almost my entire adult life, and it's being hosted on Russian free MP3 download sites as we speak. And, at the end of the day, there's not much I can do about that, so you can either choose to make peace with it or, oh, pull a Metallica and start suing anyone you can prove is sharing your album. I chose the former.

The reality is there is always going to be some piracy, and there are always going to be people willing to pay for music. Your job as an artist, if you expect to make a living doing that, is to connect with as many of the latter group as you can and encourage them to check your music out and potentially purchase it, and hope that over time and with subsequent releases maybe some of the former will decide that your music speaks to them and it's worth spending money on. Or, barring that, to connect with a large enough number of people that some percentage of them will decide that your album is worth taking a chance on, and hope that by sheer numbers you can generate sales.

So, I don't think you understand what I'm suggesting. The internet may allow people to pirate music easily, but it also allows near-instantaneous communication all over the world. Hell, you're in Australia, aren't you? In the pre-internet age, not only is it highly unlikely you'd have even been able to make your album, but there's no way in hell we'd ever be having this conversation. That's the good part of the internet. It may make it easier to illegally download a CD, but it also makes it a lot easier for you to get to know other musicians with similar interests all over the world, and some of them will likely think, "hey, this guy's music is awesome, I should buy it!" or "hey, this guy's pretty damned cool, and Ive enjoyed shooting the **** with him over the years, I really ought to buy his album." I'll hazard a guess that while a bunch of people bought my album because they liked what music they've heard, a bunch bought it simply because they've known me over the 'net for years and wanted to support the project - also, the two aren't mutually exclusive. And, when people start checking your music out, some of them will tell their friends, and some of them will tell THEIR friends, etc. At the very least, a buddy in Chicago got a couple people to buy my album off iTunes simply by playing it in the guitar shop he worked at and a few people wanted to know who it was.

That points to another thing that's changed for the better. Distribution is also way easier than it's ever been - my physical album can be bought through CD Baby, Amazon, and one or two other spots, but you can also grab it digitally through iTunes and a number of other stores, and the nice part about digital music, is that while it opens the door to piracy, duplication costs are zero so if I sell a hundred digital copies or a hundred thousand, the production costs don't change.

So, that's what I'm trying to suggest - complaining isn't going to change anything, at least not until you have the media pull of a Taylor Swift. You can complain and get nowhere, or you can adapt to the changed landscape, and if you have a good enough quality product, you can get it to sell.

I'm not saying "embrace piracy" and frankly if you're reading my posts in Craig's thread and coming away with that impression, I'm the tiniest bit offended. I'm saying that you can't just sit there and complain about "the state of the music industry today" and make excuses, you have to try to adapt to the industry as it changes. The internet allows piracy, yes... But, it also allows you to connect with musicians all over the world and gives you a distribution network that a guy in your shoes would have killed for 15 or 20 years ago.

You're looking at this like you recorded an album, so the world owes you people to buy it and if they're not, that's the industry's fault. I don't think that's true. You created an album, and you now have to convince people that it's worth their time to check it out. Yes, some of those people will pirate it, and yes, that's theft. But, a whole bunch will buy it too, because clearly people are still buying music. Piracy isn't going away any time soon, and if you're directing your energy into complaining about it, then you're not actually doing anything to help yourself.

So, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop pretending I'm in favor of piracy - I'm not. I'm also not in favor of a whole bunch of other things I have no control over, however, and I've found that the less time I spend complaining about them and the more time I spend dealing with them, ultimately the happier and more successful I'll be. Here I'm clearly not just talking about music.

 

I'll repost this, again, too, because this is the point I'm trying to make, as succulently as I can say it:

Piracy is a thing, always will be, and it's something you have to work around as a musician. I think the best way to combat it is by staying active in forums like this one, building relationships with other people, getting to know them, being part of a community, and having people want to pay for your album.

I literally have no idea where you can go from that to "piracy is a way to promote your work."

 

Lets agree to disagree on a few points... to be honest I really can't be bothered wasting any more time on this piracy stuff... steal it, buy it, each to their own. I know I prefer to pay for what I have.

 

And NOW you want to drop it. :lol:

Listen, you're insinuating I'm somehow pro-piracy. I'm not. I AM, however, saying that the music industry today is a very different place than it was in 1995, and you can either complain about that, or you can direct your energy to leveraging some of those new opportunities that today's music industry affords you that didn't exist 20 years ago. I'd say the majority of the albums I've sold are to people all over the world who I've met over the internet, which is the other side of how the industry has changed in the digital world.

We're in a niche market, playing instrumental rock, and while that limits the broad appeal of the music we write, it also has the advantage of (especially in the wake of the rise of the internet) offering a pretty tight-knit community of like-minded musicians willing to support their own. You're complaining about the negatives, and I'm suggesting that if instead you started focusing a bit more on the positives then maybe you'd be a bit better off.

 

@Drew the production is so huge, massive and of such high quality that someone has to be truly superb to shine out of the crowd. Just listen to all those kids who play riffs and solos in youtube : lots of great music and potential!

As far as piracy is concerned : Piracy IMHO is the way of big/huge entities (corporations, organizations, countries, empires, call it as you wish etc...) to impose their culture. Microsoft locked the majority of people into their OS by giving their products initially for free. Open source software was the big promise of total freedom in the early 90s. Heck even the first code for the realization of the Internet was provided as public domain. You won't believe this : Greeks had no idea of the (traditionally central euro) potatoes, until a PM decided to make their theft easy, practically promoting german food/culture onto the Greek populace. It worked. All of the above worked. Piracy is a means in the hands of the strong ones.

 

Like I said, theres no point debating this, you have your view, I have mine... lets just let it go and get on with our day and make some music...

 

Man, I wish you that! I wish I could do the same!

 

Come on kids, play nicely.

 

My view is that piracy is bad, but that complaining about it doesn't stop people from pirating music. So, since we both agree piracy is bad, what do you propose to do about it?[/QUOTE]

Well since Im a musician, absolutely nothing. I make music... someone much smarter than me is going to have to come up with a solution.

 

Well since Im a musician, absolutely nothing. I make music... someone much smarter than me is going to have to come up with a solution.

So why put all the effort into complaining about it, then, if it's someone else's problem? And why keep trying to paint me as pro-piracy, when near as I can tell your attitude is identical to mine - realize it's happening, but that the best thing you can do is go about and do your thing, make the best music you can, and use the internet to reach as many people as you can?

I mean, if that's really what you think, why are you even arguing with me? I'm completely confused.

 

Good. :lol: Just please get it out of your head that I'm somehow pro-piracy. As I'm SURE you can imagine, that's a kind of offensive thing to be told.

 

I don't think your pro-piracy.... I hope not many people are, I know some who are but thats a whole different story.....

 

I like pirates, especially Johnny Depp. He makes me laugh!

 

I'll buy tickets to shows, and then buy merch there, and leave something in the tip jar as well, and I will give bands $ for music on bandcamp and other formats that actually ensure that they see that money. I will buy signature products and all that jazz.. When I am a fan of a band or artist I am obsessed. I understand that CD sales do still impact tours and such, but besides that I never hear of any real benefit that a band gets from you buying their CD. Ha, CD's... that's the first problem, 1989 technology in 2015, go recording industry, go!

However, I love to steal music from record labels and RIAA. They don't support their artists anyway, and leave us with the same cookie cutter crap, instead of finding and promoting new art. It's like the radio, it sucks and I'm sick of hearing the same 2 songs from the same 5 bands. They have chosen their "marketing" plan and are not evolving, they will face their fate because of that. That's their problem, and they love to blame piracy or whatever for their failings.

I don't feel bad about it, probably not going to either. Call me a thieve, *******, whatever. I would probably agree since it's easier and I have music to steal haha

So everyone, leave Drew alone! Go ahead and call me pro-piracy instead, if you need that sort of target.

 

Metallica was mentioned earlier in this thread, and I absolutely loved their hypocrisy during the Napster conflict. Their path to stardom was set by piracy, with kids copying their albums and passing them on. The members of the band even bragged about it as a way to extend a middle finger towards FM radio at the time. A decade later, they were complaining about people copying their music.

 

Great arguments from both sides.

Personally, I bought many Metallica albums. However, after the napster fiasco, I never bought any additional ones. Nor did I go to any of their shows or buy of their merchandise. I don't steal their stuff, I just dislike them.

 

Great arguments from both sides.

Personally, I bought many Metallica albums. However, after the napster fiasco, I never bought any additional ones. Nor did I go to any of their shows or buy of their merchandise. I don't steal their stuff, I just dislike them.

It helps that this is right around when Metallica started to suck. :lol:

 

Some people steal to steal - they would never pay for your stuff anyway.

Some people download to see what your all about. They may listen to your stuff and may not really like it. These people would not have bought your album. So its not money lost to you. Be happy for the possible exposure.

Some people download and like it. These people will provide you income. It may come from merchandise, show tickets, or legit album sales. These are your targets.

 

I used to be a diehard Suicidal Tendencies and Infectious Grooves fan back then, and when I heard Trujilo joining metallica it felt exactly the same as when I learned that the frontman of Biohazard got into the pr0n industry ...... money suckers ....

 

I'm not sure I'm entirely understanding where the disagreement is between Drew and Sean... But this is my 2c which seems somewhat related:

I agree with Sean, and I also agree with Drew, as I will try to explain.

Piracy is a crime and it's particularly harmful to small-time artists who are trying to make their way with the help of record sales. Granted, it's realistically not as harmful to someone like Taylor Swift because the large record companies take most of the profits from record sales; and she gets most of her $$$ from shows, advertising, merchandise etc. As I've been told many a time by people more accomplished in the industry, you no longer make your money from record sales. This still doesn't make it okay in principle of course! Just a practical point.

I think that the relevant example for us here, the small-time musician, you fall into one of two camps: the Drew position which is "I have a full time job, this is my hobby and although I don't like people nicking my stuff, I don't get out of bed over it because it's only a creative outlet for me anyway"; then there's someone like my current position or a variation upon it "I'd like to become a professional musician in some way, whether it be recording, performing, teaching, etc., and the fact that people steal my stuff is 1. discouraging and 2. harmful to the financial viability of making a living-wage from being a musician." I think the latter is the real injustice of piracy: it hits low to middle earning musicians harder than anyone!

I am a pragmatist, though. So, although I don't like piracy and it'd be nicer if folks didn't steal stuff, it's a fact of life and a by-product of the internet that we have to accept. Since a degree of popularity makes it inevitable that your music will end up on a torrent site, I take the view of: "well, what the hell, if my becoming popular means I'm a target for theft, and theft increases popularity because free stuff is more popular than stuff you pay for, I might as well boost my popularity by making my music available for free. Then, people therein will steal it (as I'll have reached that level of popularity for people to want to), and a certain number of more principled people will purchase it.

Furthermore, a lawful government-intervention to curb piracy usually ends up with crappy laws being drafted that harm our civil liberties and freedoms on the internet as a whole. I'd rather people steal my stuff, and I keep my internet freedoms.

I also have sympathy for those in far less fortunate circumstances than myself - those who can't afford to buy lots of music. Or indeed those that can't afford to buy much of anything above the essentials to live! I'd rather those that fall on hard times be able to listen to music than be denied it because they can't afford it.

 

Piracy is a crime and it's particularly harmful to small-time artists who are trying to make their way with the help of record sales. Granted, it's realistically not as harmful to someone like Taylor Swift because the large record companies take most of the profits from record sales; and she gets most of her $$$ from shows, advertising, merchandise etc. As I've been told many a time by people more accomplished in the industry, you no longer make your money from record sales. This still doesn't make it okay in principle of course! Just a practical point.

I think you have it backwards, smaller bands never, ever see money from their sales. They survive by be a touring clothing company that plays music. Then they go and record another album, take another recording advance, and start all over in an ever deeper hole. If a smaller band doesn't sell enough CD's they will mostly just get dropped, so now they are out of their horrible contract and hopefully can resign to another label with some dignity in tact.

Someone like Taylor Swift can actually sell enough albums so that her recording advance is payed off, and then she can see profit, especially in terms of royalties. Taylor swift has her music in commercials and all over the radio, hell I hear her music when I take a piss at the grocery store.8O She makes $ from that for sure. I think she even has her own line of Chinese slave made clothing, she really doesn't even need to make music anymore to make $, it's just that releasing music keeps her relevant.

It's time for artists to simply realize that their product to sell is no longer music, the music is their advertisement sort of. It's what brings people to them. You make money from touring, meet & greets, lessons, merch(shirts, tabs books, guitar picks, used and signed equipment like drum heads), etc.

So you write the tunes to get people's attention, and to get them to come out, and then you sell your actual product(s) to them at the show or online at your merchstore. That's just how it is now. With home recording becoming so damn good and affordable, it makes sense. If you don't waste tens of thousands of dollars recording some songs, then you can afford to not profit off of them directly, and instead give them away for free as a means of bringing listeners and fans to you.

I mean, it's only stealing or piracy if you don't give it away. Many bands do that, and provide free full streaming, at least. Those bands are the one's that will most likely survive in this new climate, rather than those that cling on the the golden era of record sales which is long gone and dead.

 

ppl, I am off topic again, but check out Hellbastard's "Natural Order", 10 times the melodies, 10 times the anger, 10 times the soul, 10 times the speed of anything "Rust in Peace".
<back_to_my_shelter/>

 

A current, working model of how musicians can get paid has yet to be created. Piracy is a strong term to use, because MOST people who download may copy, perhaps, but normally NEVER sell it. So there is no economic benefit to the person who downloaded the music.

There is perhaps an automatic marketing benefit by the artist who is the victum of that download because this is a person who WOULD NOT OTHERWISE HAVE HEARD the music at all! I know most musicians would agree, that if they had the choice between not being heard, and being heard, but for free, they'd choose the latter, because this could bring potential of actual sales either in physical CDs, Vinyl, ticket sales or whatever merchandize the artist has. So this is definitely not a cut-and-dried topic. It is touchy for some though. The record companies and the larger artists are the ones who lose the most from this. For the small or unsigned unknown artist, the free downloads make sense. I find clarity usually when I try to figure out who has the most to gain and the most to lose. There are also fringe artists, who are established, but rely largely on ticket sales. If they have lots of CD releases, they may be hurt monetarily by downloading, but again I need to point out, that if the individual would not have sought-out or purchased the CD were it not available for free, then it definitely could be argued that the music then becomes a marketing device that could be gainfully used by the artist to generate ticket sales, interest in purchasing the music in the future, or whatever.

 

I know a lot of musicians despise Spotify, but I will say that my downloading of music went from 100 to almost 0 after I subscribed.

 

I never understood how anyone cannot see this as theft...
I can see why bands hate streaming services for their pitiful payouts per stream, but I'm sure that all depends on the artists deal with the publisher/streaming service. What is your cut per stream?

Is a label really necessary in 2016, other than touring and advertising??