Different woods for different sounds, it's as simple as that. Pretty much the same reason Vai has more than one signature pickup. It's all about the variety.

Rock on!

 

not quite.

Vai likes basswood. Vai likes good sound. Vai NEEDS light weight on stage.

Alder is a good sound, but incredibly light.

I have 1 basswood jem, and 1 alder jem. The basswood is about twice as heavy subjectively speaking. Sound similar enough, but the weight difference is kind of astonishing.

 

If Vai NEEEDS light weight should they than not stay with Alder yet the 77 as well as the new Floral are Basswood.

I don't think it has anything to do with Vai at all. Alder is probably more expensive

 

Has that guitar a "plastic sound" ?.....................NO
If you close your eyes could you tell it's a plastic guitar?.......................NO
Even if it was made of wood could you tell which wood?.......................NO

So what's the part of the wood in ELECTRIC SOLID BODY guitars?

Almost none or it's so small that our ears can tell which wood it has,there'd be only guessings.
Strings,pups,ampd and effects are probably 99% of the tone.
NOBODY in the world can listen to a ELECTRIC SOLID BODY guitar plugged into an amp with or without effects and tell which wood it has FOR SURE,again.....it'd be only a guessing.
Of course the story is different with ACOUSTIC guitars.

Am I wrong?
Ok so go to a guitar store,plug 10 unknow different guitars into the same amp and make a list with your guessings about their woods.
You could say -this guitar sounds like basswood to me,the seller would say it's mahogany and the manager would say it's alder.
Guessings.

 

I see what you're trying to say but I disagree. Sure, you may not be able to ID which exact wood is being used for X guitar-but does that mean you won't hear a difference? I've had the same exact pickups/electronics in a basswood and mahogany guitar. Night and day difference. Sure, there are differences in guitars of the same species of wood, but the differences will be to a lesser degree.

 

The weight aspect is dependent on the actual body you have. None will be the same, in fact they vary massively and as for basswood or alder being lighter that too depends on the body you are holding not alder or basswood.

 

I always thought that it had something to do with the development of the Evolutions, the 7VWH is the only guitar to use alder as well as the only one to use Evos (all the rest use Breeds, Blazes or PAF Pros)

It's just a theory, I'd be interested to hear what Steve says about it...

 

When I get on my computer I will show you guys the video of steve vai talking about why he chose alder. (weight).

So combative for no reason, knock it off.

 

Basswood wasn´t a very often used wood for making guitar bodies before the jem appearence. Vai choosed it because he liked the sound consistency between different guitars (identical sound and weight when switching from one guitar to another on-stage or with the production line guitars).

The idea of developing an alder body for a Jem came when someone at ibanez designed an alder guitar for Eddie Van Halen. That guitar was at ibanez USA an someone thought that it would be taken as the initial idea for another Jem. DiMarzio made for Steve dozens of different pick-ups and he tried them whith different bodies and different configurations (direct mounted, pickguard mounted, floating trem, fixed bridge...) What finally came out was what we know as 7V WH.

 

Interesting idea VY. Not calling you a liar by any means please don't take it like that but do you have a source? Interesting thread. Props to a new member who used search and then made a topic that is in fact valid! good work sir you earn a cookie!

 

Yes:

_ The EVH alder ibanez guitar history is told at the book: Ibanez, the untold story. Don´t have it by me now but I could post the exact pages tomorrow for those interested.

_ For the different combinations tried in the 7V WH developing there are lots of press releases over there, but I specially like the 1993 UK Guitarrist Issue where Steve speaks about the S&R album and at the end there is a 7V WH test report. Is the one with Peter Green on the cover. I can´t remember the exact number and the date but I can post it tomorrow too. There Steve speaks that during the A/B recording test he found the pickguard mounted pick-ups to sound better than the direct-mounted ones, against otherwise thought by everybody. He also didn´t found any sustain difference between floyd vs fixed bridge guitars. Finally he recorded the same thing with three identical guitars except for the wood as stated before in this thread and then he random listened to that recording not knowing which one of the three was sounding. He choosed the one he most liked and it turned to be... the one made from alder.

 

Thanks for all of your responses although I didn't mean to cause such a stir! I may be new to JEM's but not electric guitars in general. As far as guitar bodies and the relation ship of whether or not the wood type affects the tone at the end goes, and whether or not you can "adjust it out" with your gear to get the sound you want, you might ask yourself why there are thousands of luthiers and guitar parts makers (ie: Warmoth, etc) who have several wood choices for the bodies, necks, and fingerboards. You have to ask yourself why all of these sources would offer such a variety of wood types if they had little or no effect on a guitars' tone. If that were true then they'd probably be making guitarbodies out of balsa wood and save alot of players backs. Just my $.02 worth, FWIW. Thanks again!

 

Thanks for all of your responses although I didn't mean to cause such a stir! I may be new to JEM's but not electric guitars in general. As far as guitar bodies and the relation ship of whether or not the wood type affects the tone at the end goes, and whether or not you can "adjust it out" with your gear to get the sound you want, you might ask yourself why there are thousands of luthiers and guitar parts makers (ie: Warmoth, etc) who have several wood choices for the bodies, necks, and fingerboards. You have to ask yourself why all of these sources would offer such a variety of wood types if they had little or no effect on a guitars' tone. If that were true then they'd probably be making guitarbodies out of balsa wood and save alot of players backs. Just my $.02 worth, FWIW. Thanks again!

correctamundo on the balsa wood argument

Steve may have chose alder for its sound, but one of the design criteria for the 7vwh was it had to be light when he was throwing it around on stage all the time.

 

Light is a seconday benefit of alder. It was choosen due to its sound. Basswood is also a light wood. I think lighter than alder.

 

Basswood is also a light wood. I think lighter than alder.

Im backwards on this whole argument, Im sorry

he chose the basswood for the weight, and alder for the sound/weight benefit. sorry!!!

to remove subjectives from this

Basswood -> 2.8 pounds per board foot
Alder -> 3.5 pounds per board foot

edit : now to determine why my basswood jem is heavier!!!

edit : from the horses mouth
" The first design was by Vai, when he sent Hoshino his ideas from many different guitar features he liked and combined it into one guitar. The essential considerations were the weight, wood types and pickups. For the latter specification, Vai decided long before Ibanez contacted him, that he would use DiMarzio pickups for his guitars." His first 3 prototypes were made of mahog, basswood, and alder. He chose the basswood lol.

 

I have a basswood Ibanez with Evo bridge and PAF Pro neck and I had an Epi LP -Mahogany body/neck and using the same amp/ effects the LP owned the OD1 crunch channel and the Ibanez the OD2. Both sounded OK on either channel, but they really had their niche.

 

References as promised yesterday:

_ Ibanez, the untold story (textually):

pag. 148; Chapter: The metal years "An unconventional design: Three JEM prototypes were first sent to Steve Vai: maple, alder and mahogany. Ultimately, Vai chose basswood because it´s a very consistent wood from piece to piece. For Vai, consistency was of the utmost importance -he wanted to be able to go into any music store, pick up any JEM and know how it was going to feel and sound-". No references to wheigt here.

pag. 190; chapter: the third decade. "The first alder-bodied JEM was actually designed to be a surprise gift for Eddie Van Halen who had more than a few fans at Ibanez. However, no one could figure a good time for the gift and the guitar sat a Hoshino´s N Hollywood office until one day asked if anyone had any good ideas for a new JEM model".

_ UK Guitarrist, september 1993. pag 63; 7V WH Construction: "This one I spent a lot of time and energy in developing". Steve continued. "I had Ibanez make me two guitars that were identical; same pickups, same strings, except one guitar was mede out of alder and the other was made of basswood. Then I went into my studio and played and recorded both guitars. Compared them by A/B-ing the tape. I happened to like the sound of the alder better, so now the new JEM is alder instead of basswood". (...) "I had DiMarzio make me two dozen pickups. I put a set of pickups in a guitar and played on one track of tape, then i changed the pickups on the guitar and played on another track, then i changed the pickups again and again, until i had about 12 tracks of guitar playing the same thing with different pickups. I used the same amplifier, the same microphone, the same cabinet each time. Then i would make some notes and send them to DiMarzio for another set of pickups! What I ended up with was these pickups which are called EVOLUTIONS. They´re named after the Harley Davidson motorcycle engine. (...). I experimented with mounting the pickups into the pickguard instead of mounting them into the body of the guitar. For my taste, I liked the way they sounded with the pickups mounted onto the pikguard. (...). I wanted to see what a Jem sounded like without a tailpiece, so i had two identical guitars made but one with a tailpiece and one without. A lot of people have said that it´s much brighter and cleaner and there´s more sustain without tailpiece, but I actually found the opposite".

Hope you enjoy it! No references about weight anywere.

 

My turn.

http://www.noahjames.com/C-D/GUITARDE.HTM

Thats the guy that built the prototypes.

 

Wow! Alot of great information. Thanks to all who contributed! It sounds like there's a little conflicting info on which wood is actually lighter but other than that it gave me the what I was looking for. I think that I'd probably go for the Alder because I like a little warmer sound, but that's just my personal preference. I'm sure they're all great in their own rite. Thanks again!

 

JD didn't build the original prototypes, but did work on them. Mace Bailey was the builder of record, and then the CS was moved to LA in 90/91, anything after that was built there. Mace quit soon after and JD took over that slot and did build plenty of guitars over the years, but primarily artist guitars were built in LA.

American Basswood, from the top of the tree, that's the light stuff. I've had 6 pound JEM's, and 9 pound JEM's, same model [FP2's].

 

Oh crazy!!! That may be why my basswood one is heavier. Thanks

 

This is the most interesting thread I've read in a while...

I guess the only thing that still puzzles me is why Steve decided to make only one Jem (albeit the one he plays the vast majority of the time) out of alder, and leave the rest made of basswood if he really did like the tone better. You would think we would have more than just the 7VWH...strange

Also, it's interesting to hear that Steve finds alder to be a warmer wood than basswood, I have always considered it to be the other way around (both from experience and from internet info) but just recently Satch also said that alder was a darker wood than the basswood he is used to in response to the alder, orange JS2400 proto. So there must be more than a little truth to it...

 

The VSBL is also alder, not that 2-20 is any more impressive a ratio.

 

Tone woods do make a difference. It's not a huge difference but you'll notice it if you ever do something like Steve's experiment. And if you don't want to build three guitars just to isolate the wood species factor, all you have to do is play a few guitars with similar electronics but different woods.

I had the chance once to play two G & L ASATs (Telecasters). Same pups and switch, same maple neck, but they were alder and ash. They definitely had different tone, but you wouldn't notice it unless that factor was isolated.

That isolation is critical in evaluating tone-- that's why I always take a familiar amp when I test new guitars, and a familiar guitar when I try new amps. That's how to really hear the new sound.

Peace

Mike

 

Has anyone compared Aspen to either Alter or Basswood. I did a search and see nothing on Aspen. I'm trying to get some wood together to build a few bodies. My connections lead me to a knowledgeable “wood” guy that is not necessarily a “guitar” guy. When asked for samples of Basswood and Alter, he was surprised they were even being compared since they are totally different woods - which is true from what I’ve read here. He said the Aspen was closer to basswood, and easily available here in Michigan, and about 20% less $$ than basswood. I have a sample of each (basswood and aspen, but not alter). The grain and weight are similar. The Aspen is a bit lighter in color. Booth look good to me. I’m wondering if there is a different term used for Aspen? Someone suggested it was just pine, but it seems a lot tougher than any pine I’ve ever seen. Any thoughts on this?

 

Aspen definitely isn't pine. Two very different trees.

I've never heard of an aspen guitar but I dont know why it couldn't exist and sound good.

Peace

Mike

 

Aspen is from the Genus Populus (the Poplars in Europe). I have a DT350 that is Poplar. If it is the same wood (I know that Liriodendron is sometimes called Poplar in the US as opposed to the Tulip Tree in the UK and Europe) then it is a hardwood and OK as a tone wood.

It is lightweight and easy to work, but I don't think of it as a great tone wood soundwise.

 

steve vai misses his stolen pink jackson soloist, so he wanted alder body again

 

Poplar was to Jackson, what basswood is to Ibanez.
The Kelly, Rhoads and Dinky were all poplar (might still be).

 

And if you want a really heavy body wood--go with maple. I had a pre-production San Dimas Charvel made of maple and that thing weighed a ton. Probably what eventually caused that disc replacement surgery I just had...lol.

 

Wood certainly contributes to the tone, but it's not something REALLY obvious. Wood, construction and hardware shape the tonal characteristics (EQ) of the strings (the strings themselves also contribute with their own characteristics of course). Hardware probably shape the tone a lot more than wood, but together they contribute with something fundamental which cannot be concealed a 100% no matter how much the tone is EQ'd.

Check out this video:

The tones aren't extremely different, but I can certainly hear the characteristics of the woods when compared.