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Do people really think they're buying the same guitar the artists use?

14K views 68 replies 25 participants last post by  jono  
#1 · (Edited)

I've watched videos about the new Tim Henson signature models. They're made in Indonesia and people are already complaining about quality issues.

I thought it was common sense. People really think they're buying the same guitar that Tim Henson uses? His guitars are custom made at the LA shop and probably cost 8-10k, same as Vais, Satriani, etc. They're not using off the rack models at all. Their are custom made and modded to their quirks.

An Ibanez PIA costs $3999 and in a way, is closer to the artist actual PIA than these Henson models are, but to believe that Steve's PIAs are actually just $3999 off the rack model is naive. His PIAS are probably custom made at the LA shop and also have modifications to them that jack up the price up to 10k easily.

Probably the only Jem that was made to be almost similar if not exactly as Steve's actual guitars, was the EVO copy and the 8-10k price reflected that.

To believe that Tim Henson, a huge guitar player and very famous worldwide now, is playing an Indonesian guitar live and for his records, is very naive and laughable.

Not to mention, Ibanez has realized where the money is, in the more affordable creations, such as Jem Jrs and premiums, that's where the money is, not the PIAs.

The Jem Jr has sold and still sells like candy all around the world. Its probably the most sold Ibanez guitar in many years. It was a home run, because they copied all the cosmetic parts of the Jem, albeit with cheaper materials, thus satisfying that desire for a Jem like guitar. Unlike previous copies like JEM555 which failed at copying the aesthetics.

Most fans cannot afford a $3999 guitar or even a $2500 one. This is a reality. This is why Henson signature models are purely indonesian models and priced affordably. That's what sells and what fans are more likely to buy rather a $4000 japanese copy.
 
#2 ·
I think you're correct to a point, but you're only really using Ibanez as an example.

I think when it comes to the Japanese made Jems ect, spec wise they're identical to an off-the-rack guitar, but they're probably intentionally finished by the best guys in the factory, with an attention to detail around the finish and setup that's a level above most guitars.

With the cheaper ones, well yes I think there's a vast difference. I saw a Premium Jem (the blue floral one) in a guitar shop on the weekend and the fret work was not good, with lots of what looked like black filler on a maple board.

With other high end stuff like Music Man, I've got a couple and they're really well finished instruments, but I suspect a little more care on the setup and finish would be given to the ones headed to John Petrucci.

I did read that Richie Faulker from Judas Priest has been using his (admittedly Limited Edition) Epiphone signatures live on the past few tours, but now they're finally producing a Gibson version.|

I'm not really sure what modifications you think Vai's guitars might have? As far as I'm aware, Vai works on the spec with Ibanez, I can't imagine what mods he's have on them - the same isn't quite true about amps of course as we know Vai has continually modded his amps after releasing them, but I think that's just a guitarist always searching for the tone in their head.
 
#3 ·
Unfortunately you just think you know, but you don't. Most of Steve and Joe's guitars are built at Fujigen. Prototypes are usually custom shop and they tend to continue playing them because they bond with them first, Joe's 2410 because it was actually the color he wanted the factory could never get. Blackdog was built using an HSH Radius body they filled in the S hole with dough and a Korean Roadstar neck. Very few JEMs have an LACS serial number, go thru his guitar gallery. 28 PIA's, 2 with LA serial number.

Henson's production guitars are Premiums because he wanted them to be for the price point. He is going to be doing a Japanese version.
 
#4 ·
If you look at most of Steve’s main guitars (EVO FLO BO FLO III) through the last 20-30 years, and I mean really look at some closeups, you’ll realize in terms of the quality most people are concerned with (finish, gaps, converted bodies, handcut pickguards) they wouldn’t make it through QC.

That’s what makes them fun. They’re workhorses.

All of the mods on Steve’s guitars, you can do to yours for around $1k. I’m no expert on guitar production costs, but I do know that when you put parts down a supply chain they become exponentially more expensive and it’s almost certainly cheaper to have your guitar installed with a sustainer(~$600), backstop ($150-250), scalloped($250), and possible neck reprofile on your own than to have Ibanez do it for you.
 
#8 ·
so Steve's PIAs that he actually he uses for touring as in this video are just off the rack $3999 models that he picked and just modded?

Then why was the EVO copy priced at 10k

I actually heard it from one of Steve's youtube lives where he said, the stock Jems/PIAs are really good but to get one just like his would double the price

 
#9 ·
If you ever did a little investigating instead of just spouting off in what are click bait threads to 3 different forums, you'd already know.

Which PIA,

ONYX?? - F2123422 - Fujigen

Or ENVY - F1931083 - Fujigen

Are his guitars modified to what he wants at any given month? What do you think. Are they custom shop? NO. He's also playing a dead stock Schofield model.

Your problem is you think the guitar is everything and it's so special it makes him a great player that you can't achieve because you can only buy normal guitars. He's a great player because he spent 10,000 hours practicing before he cut his first disc!! Because he's got the imagination, desire, and determination to persevere and write the music he wants, and the memory to remember something he put on some tape 20 years ago, find it, and use it to build a song. So while you're surfing the internet starting click bait threads, he would have been honing his craft. Unless your only craft is coming up with click bait threads.
 
#11 ·
Your problem is you think the guitar is everything and it's so special it makes him a great player that you can't achieve because you can only buy normal guitars. He's a great player because he spent 10,000 hours practicing before he cut his first disc!! Because he's got the imagination, desire, and determination to persevere and write the music he wants, and the memory to remember something he put on some tape 20 years ago, find it, and use it to build a song. So while you're surfing the internet starting click bait threads, he would have been honing his craft. Unless your only craft is coming up with click bait threads.
This!!!!! Gear is just a means to help yourself become the guitar player you can be. Whether that guitar player is good depends on talent, imagination, creativity, your ear and the work you put in to it!
 
#10 ·
The EVO relic was a SUGI limited run. Look at what other Sugi Ibanez are selling for.

There isn’t a such thing as $10k mods for an Ibanez guitar unless you’re doing what Thomas Nordegg did to some custom builds with electronics or if you’re bedazzling using precious metals.

If Steve said that, and that’s if you’re not misquoting him which I have a feeling you are as that doesn’t sound like the truth or something he’d say, what he meant is that’s what the retail of the guitar would be because of the accrued cost in a supply chain for a production model. That doesn’t mean the mods themselves cost that much money.

Tosin Abasi wanted a certain kind of tuner for his Ibanez Abasi signature and it was like a $150 set retail, that in a production setting was going to make it 2 or 3x more expensive because of the nature of supply chain etc.

If a pia came out with all the Steve mods you’d probably say it were too expensive!
 
#12 · (Edited)
buying an artist's guitar is not going make you have his skills, technique, play like him, just as following a bodybuilders workout or diet, is not going to make you look like him either.

Steve is very talented. He always tries to minimize this by saying that guitar was really difficult for him and that he has NO natural talent for the guitar. If someone had put the amount of hours he did, they'd be 10 times better player. All these artists want you to believe they are more hard working and came from struggling beginnings than they really did. They exaggerate the truth to be perceived in a better light, the old pull yourself by your bootstraps, we all can make it.

Same goes for the 10-12 hour workouts which started as a way to sell guitar magazines. It's impossible to practice correctly, efficiently for 12 hours a day, even if spread out through the day. Waking hours are around 16. Where is the research or proof that each one of those 12 hours is actually contributing to progress? Maybe is only the first 4 or 5 hours and the rest doesn't help anything or is just diminishing returns or maybe even make things worse.

On paper, it looks wow 12 hours? you're so hard working, i could never do that, no wonder you're Steve Vai, Gilbert, etc. They miss one big part where they are talents like 1 in millions. That's why they are where they are, and we are not. It has nothing to do with practice.

Surely, they practiced many hours, but the whole 12-30 hours is a bit of an exaggeration by these artists to be perceived in the "hard worker" light. They're not going to tell you, yeah I'm a talent that only comes every few decades, though deep down they know they are.

Playing fast or having some shred technique ain't enough either. You need the whole package, which they have. The internet is full of speed demons, yet they remain nobodies and at most, they may get their few minutes of fame on youtube, only to be forgotten by the algorithms.

Steve, Joe, Gilbert, Henson and many others are where they are because they are very talented, not just at guitar, but many other aspects, they have the whole package, and are talents that only happen 1 in millions, once in a lifetime.

The main point is that we mortals cannot have access to the same customizations and accommodations they are given due to money, connections, fame, etc.

Steve and Joe can have any guitar built however they want by whoever they want and for free.

One example of this, is that bonvillain guy. He does work only for his friends and big artists, not for the common folk.
 
#18 · (Edited)
buying an artist's guitar is not going make you have his skills, technique, play like him, just as following a bodybuilders workout or diet, is not going to make you look like him either.

Steve is very talented. He always tries to minimize this by saying that guitar was really difficult for him and that he has NO natural talent for the guitar. If someone had put the amount of hours he did, they'd be 10 times better player. All these artists want you to believe they are more hard working and came from struggling beginnings than they really did. They exaggerate the truth to be perceived in a better light, the old pull yourself by your bootstraps, we all can make it.

Same goes for the 10-12 hour workouts which started as a way to sell guitar magazines. It's impossible to practice correctly, efficiently for 12 hours a day, even if spread out through the day. Waking hours are around 16. Where is the research or proof that each one of those 12 hours is actually contributing to progress? Maybe is only the first 4 or 5 hours and the rest doesn't help anything or is just diminishing returns or maybe even make things worse.

On paper, it looks wow 12 hours? you're so hard working, i could never do that, no wonder you're Steve Vai, Gilbert, etc. They miss one big part where they are talents like 1 in millions. That's why they are where they are, and we are not. It has nothing to do with practice.
You are so tripped out on trying to justify why somebody else can achieve greatness, I don't know where to begin. You think they practiced 12 hours to sell magazines?! Or it was just a gimmick? I played 8 hours a day for years, I wish I had done it 12. They're talented because they did the work, not because they are 1 in any million, they're one in a million because those are the only ones willing to put in that much work. And they had great teachers. Joe taught Steve. Now you have the Abasi's and Henson's, Abasi has been teaching Henson hybrid picking and then they put in the countless hours to perfect it, do you not get this?!

The main point is that we mortals cannot have access to the same customizations and accommodations they are given due to money, connections, fame, etc.

Steve and Joe can have any guitar built however they want by whoever they want and for free.

One example of this, is that bonvillain guy. He does work only for his friends and big artists, not for the common folk.
More bull****. If you don't have the money to put in sustainers they didn't need them to become talented and famous, they were already famous when they added them to their trick bag. Steve was playing a Strat with Zappa. Joe was playing a parts guitar he put together for his first album, just like Eddie used for half his career, parts. Not custom anything, PARTS. They got connections because they were great players that worked to make connections. Steve sold Flexible out of THE TRUNK OF HIS CAR! Joe financed NOTE with a $5000 credit line on a credit card he just got. They worked to get where they are.

And BON will take anybody's money, not right now, he's still fulfilling a contract! Will it be expensive? Absolutely, he got where HE is by hard work!!
 
#19 ·
I don't think I would buy a guitar for full price with those flaws. If I still wanted it, I would ask for a reduced price. I'm less concerned about the off-color Ibanez logo, but the poor routing and the neck finish crack make it look like a used guitar. The difference in paint between the body and headstock was also bizarre.
 
#20 ·
Neck finish crack happened in shipping, either to the dealer or to the customer. Some buyers take a discount for them which is usually equal to the shipping and fees the dealer would lose if it was returned. Some dealers pickup inventory, fully inspect it, and pack so they never get cracks during shipping. The routs are like that, it's Indo, some are better, some are worse. The conduct paint slopped over the back I couldn't tell you how many times I've wiped it off with polish, it's on top of the clear and comes right off. The bruises to the back of the neck and specifically the back of the headstock should have never made it out of PA. Nobody even mentioned all the dirt in the silver paint you can clearly see, that's not dust, that's Indo.
 
#22 ·
I'd say certain guitars are close to what the artist uses - even if there is more care in wood selection it's lot like they are getting a special hidden super high graded wood vs. yours. The best staff will work on the build etc. but also these guys have great techs and also the guitars are workhorses.

Artists aren't trying to keep them like pure virgins unblemished as case queens hoping the values rise. If the guitar needs work or something shaving to make it better then so be it. Eddie wanted to be able to pick one of the shelf and have it play great - he borrowed an EBMM from a UK store to record with Tony Iommi. I find the action on mine high, and the neck a funny shape (suited the Ed's hands and modelled of the 5150 Kramer neck he shaved down) - but love it all the same. Ed will have messed around with his in his workshop.

I was reading one of the old John Suhr columns in GW when he was working at Rudys in NYC and he'd shave down fretboards to get action lower and the guitars playing better. He had a queue or artists wanting his works then his builds. I have a Reb Beach spec Suhr Modern and out of all my guitars that plays the best and the wood selection is top notch. His ex partner Rudy Pensa is still making guitars and they are $10k (although I'm sure I saw that its a Japanese luthier making them in the workshop).

My original JEM777DY is my fav Ibanez and an amazing player - its got a great set-up and I's love to know how far off some of Steve's it is for playability. Some guitarists like to wrestle with guitars a bit. It was interesting to see the Nuno / Rick Beato interview and Nuno playing old stock vintage SGs and Strats .. he was wow'd by the setups and said they were set up better than his own artist guitars - which means a great tech is super important.

I have a Jackson PC1 that I love - very underestimated guitars. Built like a tank and I can't see this being too far off some of Phil Collen's - I added the titanium parts and my tech got the action super low. He was blown away by the guitar after setting it up. Its killer.
 
#23 ·
Do people really think they're buying the same guitar the artists use?

Yes, I think a lot of people do think that.



However, as this thread has shown. In lots of cases they are, whilst in other cases, they’re not. It’s as simple as that.

With the internet at consumers’ fingertips, there shouldn’t be any issues finding out with threads just like this one here.

I always liked the fact that for a while at least, Vai seemed to use factory guitars, but then when the sustainer caught on with him, he seemed then to be using factory guitars that were modded and that in itself did upset me a little, because he wasn’t playing the guitar he was selling, so I somewhat understand the sentiment of the thread.

But, Vai’s a guitarist and a tinkerer in the same way that many of us are and many guitarists always have been. We swap pickups, change setups and re-do electronics and he’s no different, it’s just he has the budget and the team to make that a lot easier nowadays than attacking a Charvel with a chisel 😉

The PBK that he used for a while was a stock factory guitar and to be honest, it's one of my favourite of his guitars ever :)
 
#24 ·
People think I dislike Vai or I'm always criticizing him. I'm not taking away anything from him, but he is not without his flaws, as we all are. He is a very nice guy. I watched him live and he is amazing, I can only imagine how he was in his prime. He didn't miss or mess up one note in the whole show it was flawless. He is also very talented as I said. Not just for the guitar or music in general, but also his personality, charisma, character, etc. That's why he has been so successful.

Also why so many people like him want to imitate him, why this forum exist where we want to have the same guitars as the man. If we didn't like him and didn't see him as inspiration, we wouldn't be here.

This forum is called JEM site created after this man's guitars. A lot of people like him and want to be like him, use him as inspiration, me included, otherwise I wouldn't have RG guitars, evolution pickups, etc. I'd be playing something else like Schecter, strats, etc. I wouldn't spend time watching his videos and improvisation, and attempting to tab them for my enjoyment.

I do admire him and he is my favorite guitar player. I just wish his japanese guitar were little more affordable, especially in this recession we are in and heading to.

The cost of the new Bonvillain model was very high, which we all expected anyway.

I think sometimes he exaggerates a few things and tries a little too hard to be very humble, which I get, but we all know is he is very talented, no shame in admitting that.
 
#25 ·
So, if I go with a slightly heavier set of strings, change out a nut, then I have a custom guitar. I think this is akin to the stock presets found on an Axe-FX, or some other unit, which may be the EXACT SAME PATCHES that a well-known guitarist may use, but he tweaked the hell out of it... thus... it's custom. Argument can be made for or against that, but not sure the point... let people buy what they want and they likely never would sound like or be as talented anyway, and would not play any better even if the same guitar was handed to the amateur.
 
#31 ·
Can’t think of a great example, but in my mind, a player gets famous using the OTR version, then gets his custom later. And that’s good enough for me. Dave Navarro maybe? Brad Newel. Jimmy, Page. Who by his attitude should be called James. Lots of ESP players. So Val is exceptional, does not invalidate OP point.
 
#32 ·
I don’t know why anyone would buy indo when they can get all those lovely early 90s - 2000s MIJ for (mostly) so much less.

Ibanez (and Vai) figured out they can sell a f-ton of cheap Indo Jems to people who are easily satisfied and that’s why they’re doing it. I think it’s sad and imho damages the Jem line (especially that horrible abomination of the BFP; let alone the Jr.), but hey that’s business. The gen pop doesn’t give two f’s.

Having said that… the better and longer you play, the more you expect from your instrument - but hand a Gio to Vai and he’ll make it scream like the guy she told you not to worry about.
 
#35 ·
I don’t know why anyone would buy indo when they can get all those lovely early 90s - 2000s MIJ for (mostly) so much less.

Ibanez (and Vai) figured out they can sell a f-ton of cheap Indo Jems to people who are easily satisfied and that’s why they’re doing it. I think it’s sad and imho damages the Jem line (especially that horrible abomination of the BFP; let alone the Jr.), but hey that’s business. The gen pop doesn’t give two f’s.

Having said that… the better and longer you play, the more you expect from your instrument - but hand a Gio to Vai and he’ll make it scream like the guy she told you not to worry about.
Not everyone wants to buy used especially online, you're taking a risk and taking someone else's dump

You don't know if proper maintenance was done or what is really wrong with the guitar, all you can see in most cases is a weak description (the seller will always sing praises) and some poor photos.

Lots of things could be wrong with these olders JEMs, even the most recent ones before discontinuation. The bridge could be messed up, maybe it needs a refret, maybe is a lemon and it already came crappy from the factory, something else could be wrong.

Then again, is the only way many people can own a JEM as when new they were $3500 or 3999 I think

Technically speaking, the PIA is the better axe, then you're already approaching the 5k mark soon, only a matter of time before Steve's signature non anniversary/non limited guitars cost 5k stock
 
#33 ·
Oh and if you think only a great guitar makes a great player uh take Frankenstrat as an example! That pos (to quote Ed) was just a mistake (quote Ed). So there ya go. The Fender CS replica costs so much, because the thousands of hours work f’ing it up that was put into it to make it look exactly like the real thing (just like EVO) and the Frankie replica is much better than the original (quote Ed), well because a master builder made it, not a slightly drunk and clueless teenage Ed with a cig dangling from his mouth using the cheapest materials he could possibly find.