varies by model but generally speaking you get the inferior bridge and production line. I have a long-winded work-in-progress article on Pro/Cons of Jem Premium vs Prestige click here it might give some more clarity.

 

Interesting read. I've found it educational. A correction is needed "RG655 (Made in Japan) list price $1599 vs JEM77SFG (made in Indonesia)..." Should be JEM70SFG, not 77.

Could you go into more detail why the Edge is better than an Edge Zero II? On a side note, I've read that the Edge Zero and Edge Zero II are direct placements for each other. Could you add that to the explanation? Also what is the difference between the Prestige neck and the Premium neck w/KTS™ TITANIUM rods?

So far the places that I've check for the KIKO models are only able to get them about a week after ordering them. This means I am not able to get my hands on them until after they are paid for and returns for "special orders" are not possible. It is also my understanding that there isn't a different model (RG655 / JEM70 or 77) that is a direct comparison due to the specifications are unique to the single model.

 

So far the places that I've check for the KIKO models are only able to get them about a week after ordering them. This means I am not able to get my hands on them until after they are paid for and returns for "special orders" are not possible. It is also my understanding that there isn't a different model (RG655 / JEM70 or 77) that is a direct comparison due to the specifications are unique to the single model.

The KIKO feels prefect if you like a thinker neck [20-22mm] and the narrower nut [42mm]. The body is typical SA with some signature features.

I have them in stock, no special order issues with returns.

 

thx typo corrected

Someone will have to comment on retrofitting an Edge Zero and Edge Zero II.

I'm not the person to comment on Edge vs EZ2 cause i'm a trem snob. If i buy an axe with a double-locking trem and go thru all the hassle of that axe i'm getting the best tremolo - Edge/LoPro/EdgePro - made 30+ years running. Otherwise i'd prefer no tremolo. That said perhaps the EZ2 is the best "not a real Edge" double locker ibanez has used. Here are my personal notes on the EZ2...

Ibanez Edge Zero-II was introduced in 2011 to replace the Edge-III. The Edge Zero-II "Zero Point" double locking tremolo is currently found in Premium JEMs (Indonesian made) aside from the original Sea Foam Green JEM70SFG (which featured the Edge trem). Features: locking studs, Knife edges that are pressed in (like the Edge, LoPro & EdgePro), tremolo arm that plugs-in with adjustable arm tension. The EZII can be set to float or for zero point with the stop rod that prevents the float. Unfortunately, the body routing, stud width & stud placement is different than the Edge, LoProEdge, EdgePro so none of those, nor the OFR Original Floyd Rose trems nor Gotoh 1996T will directly retrofit and drop-in without severe body modifications.​

 

The more I let your article settle in, the more I am probably better off going with the Prestige.

The reason isn't because of the tremolo differences or the country of origin but the future resale value once it is discontinued and I am ready to sell it after many years of trusty use... At least that is what I will be telling my credit card when it asks for mercy.

 

A self proclaimed trem snob and Japan snob cannot write an unbiased paper on a snobs choice over "the other ran".

 

Well, I retract that after reading it. I'd have written alot of that myself. I'll correct some errors and add commentary though.

Ignoring the price and style, objectively speaking the Premium JEMs electric 6-string & UV 7-string guitars have decent hardware, feature set, build quality, Dimarzio made Ibanez pickups, sound… backed by Ibanez warranty available new from authorized dealers.

Since we're talking JEM's they are not Dimarzio/IBZ pickups, only the first run [and possibly some current models available outside the US] had those, all current Premiums in the US are Dimarzios [just as the Dimarzio/IBZ's were, they were just made specifically for Ibanez by Dimarzio] and the same pickups they use in Fujigen models.

The fact that Made-in-Japan RGs featured real Edge tremolos at a much lower cost than Premium JEM/UVs creates a source of conflict if not disappointment. Ibanez methodically altered the body routing so you can't directly swap an Edge into the Edge Zero II routing of the Premium JEMs without extensive body routing & modification. Ibanez used the same playbook as it did with the old & scorned Korean 555s with TRS-equipped tremolos that did not accept the Edge trems. This is intentional.

You couldn't put an Edge into a TRS rout because the TRS rout was made to fit the TRS, not an Edge. Yes, it is intentional to make the rout fit the actual trem being used. That is not to say you don't have a valid argument with the wider stud spacing on the current EZ/ZR variations.

(-) Overpriced vs other similar non-signature Indonesian guitars (i.e. Indonesian RGs)
Ibanez imposes a rather high "signature model" tax on the Indonesian JEMs. $750 upcharge (50% price increase) vs similar Indonesian RGs. This is where the Premium JEMs becomes questionable in terms of value relative to similar non-signature models.
• RG950 list price $1,408 vs JEM77PBFP list price $2,133. Both guitars are made in Indonesia with comparable parts/hardware. $750 upcharge for plastic vine inlay, monkey grip & lion's claw (removes wood, decreases tone/sustain).

For comparison of like-Prestige models the JEM7VWH list price is $4000 vs RG655 list price $1599. This represents a $2,401 upcharge for the tree of life inlays, Monkey Grip, Lion's Claw, possibly better Rosewood fret board and angled input jack.

This has always been the expected signature upcharge for 30 years now, why would we expect anything to change? In 87' the JEM was $1299, the RG550 was $659. They were double the price from the beginning.

Interjecting subjective commentary to clarify this point, strategically it's obvious that the arbitrarily high pricing of Indonesian JEMs reflects & drives the desired Ibanez pricing for Prestige (MIJ) JEM/UVs which remain costly in comparison. For Ibanez the result is exactly what is intended… to maintain overall high prices for all Signature JEM/UVs regardless of where they are made relative to similar non-signature model guitars. This is not only a revenue generator for Ibanez but highly profitable.

I seriously doubt the pricing is arbitrary. It's intentionally set where it is as what the market will bear combined with what profit margins they need, and of course Steve's cut, which, I'm starting to believe is fairly significant, and possibly more the reason he's behind the Premium model as opposed to making fewer more expensive models in Japan.

As a result ultimately Ibanez does not maintain full control over their luthiers, what they produce nor the production cost. Ibanez controls only the cost of raw materials.

Ibanez does not control the costs of anything. Fujigen sells all the wood to Ibanez they use for manufacture, not in Ibanez control, Gotoh [and others] are contracted to make the hardware, not in Ibanez control. Any smart company is going to try and negotiate those costs as to their benefit, but they have no control. They would have no more control if they owned the factory and built the guitars themselves. They still have to pay the going rate for everything, including labor, benefits, raw materials, etc which they get to avoid by just paying for the completed guitar.

By trying to blur the lines between Premium and Prestige instruments over time Ibanez feels it is in a win-win position pushing prices higher for Prestige instruments with limited audience and production capability. The strategy Ibanez is using to solve it's production problem is the complete opposite of Gibson, Fender & PRS. The long-term ramification of Ibanez's strategy will play out before our eyes.

This strategy has been theirs from the beginning so it is not new, and it has worked for them thus far, not giving them many reasons to change the model. And bottom line, Ibanez' long term survival is not in Japan or Premiums but in the models with high sales, the 450's and Chinese built everything, as well as the cheap acoustics, where volume is the key.

 

Thx Rich.

Doesn't the TRS drop right in (fit) the Edge routing? Visually it wouldn't look as nice however the TRS routing prevented the easy upgrade.

Arbitrary/intentional pricing... the Premiums JEMs and MIJ JEMs are priced exactly to price inflate both of them substantially more than non-sig models. I struck out "arbitrary" either way.

Ibanez surely controls prices of raw materials based on their selection. Edge vs Zero. all the parts, knobs, wiring, switches, etc. For the JEM there is basically American basswood or alder.. not many choices. But AM205 no burl top cheaper than AM200 with the burl. Ibanez could say to use a cheaper alder cut if desired and Fuji would have to comply. Same with rosewood boards, etc. I probably didn't explain that ideally figuring it's rather obvious.

 

They can control their pricing in only how the specs they choose affect the pricing. And they still have to choose specs that players want to buy to sell the guitars. They've moved to veneers instead of "tops", etc. But in the end, once the spec is chosen, they have no control over the pricing of the raw materials as they are supplied as part of the quote of the finished build.

So bottom line, they still have no control.

 

Agree, it's almost semantics but to be factual, they have some control because they choose the parts. They could leverage Gotoh or find another maker. Invest in something like that and sell to other companies (i.e. Sony sells many camera sensors for many brands & phones). But Ibanez doesn't have Tim Cook level of parts and manufacturing efficiency & procurement.

 

like when they had "Ibanez" ground out of the 9 string GB2 baseplate so they could sell it to everybody else?

You have to remember the Asian Tong system, violate Tong protocol and you expose yourself to more trouble than the pennies saved. And bottom line they've been married to Gotoh for so long I'm sure they've already negotiated their best deals both ways.

 

LOL. We'll never know the cross-ownership of the Japanese sourced materials. Having partnered with at least 3 USA luthiers in the early 90s (AMneck thru/Gresco, usrg/bunker, ucew/hosono) i'd still like to see them get out of their comfort zone (auto pilot).

 

They heavily explored those options when the Yen went too strong. If a Yen at 85 - 1 doesn't make them setup in the US again, what will. They're accepted as a Japanese company so they don't need to have a "made in America" tag when everybody expects it to be Japan. And since every US builder is also building everywhere cheap, that's what's really blurring the lines. When Gibson and PRS are selling more guitars without the Made in USA tag it has an effect of the way we think about it.

 

Understood but if Gibson and PRS are selling not-made-in-USA in large quantity what are they thinking about other than superior brand recognition.... how to get it? If Gibson/PRS/Fender is expanding (non-USA-made) that means Ibanez will be contracting unless the market is growing. What is the fix for that is my question. Clearly it's rhetorical and we all know Ibanez is not changing the playbook. They've doubled-down if anything.

 

Everybody is expanding, but the US bigs have been overseas for a decade and many more [ie.Japanese Fender] so they're all doing the same thing. The more the US bigs import from Asia, the more widely accepted Asian [and Ibanez] become in the minds of the patriotic MIUSA crowd.

 

Then you have people like Jeff Kiesel, who constantly bash "Asian-made" guitars and tout the whole "MURIKA!" thing. It doesn't help that Kiesel is going through some sort of Renaissance and getting a bigger name, all the while bashing companies like Ibanez and ESP, saying "Asian-made" is not up to MIUSA quality, which is absolute BS.

 

I'll agree to disagree with you on that one. I don't see any way for Ibanez to take solace in bigger USA companies selling more guitars at med to low cost that aren't made in USA.

 

I never said they took solace, I said it changes americans minds more and more daily about imported asian guitars. And that in the long run benefits Ibanez, to whatever extent.

Ibanez is selling more and more of the same MIC/MII which does Ibanez good, if that's where the market is these days. They have to adapt or die just like everybody else.

 

I'll also agree to disagree that USA makers selling more non-USA-made product "changes americans minds more and more daily about imported asian guitars."

Ibanez is staying in the race to the bottom. You might be OK with that for now.

 

What race?

If what is selling most is cheaper entry and student level models, and mostly acoustic, then that's where the market is and what they have to serve. If you want to spend $7000 on a top build, they serve that sector also. And everywhere in between. The market is what the market is, Ibanez has to serve as many sectors of it as possible to make as many sales as possible. Do they do everything right? No. Do they do everything wrong? No. So what are we talking about?!

 

Pricing bottom. IMHO in no way is it good for Ibanez that Gibson/PRS/Fender is selling more & more non-USA guitars. "The market" as you call it outside the cheap stuff has Ibanez as an outlier sans some signature models on occasion from Steve & Joe. But no need to debate it.... to me that is not healthy or ideal for Ibanez... your comments reflect that it's fine because they're selling lots of cheap stuff.

 

The outlier would be that they take some of the hollow market from the others, with guitars that are Fuji Fantastic.

The Prestige RG is an outlier too?! Selling many -1 against signatures, as price dictates.

With everybody complaining how expensive everything is getting how are you arguing a race to pricing bottom?! :lol:

 

I am fortunate in what I can afford. To me, Ibanez has always been THE BRAND of Asian guitar with ESP second. The fact they continue to expand in the orient makes sense.

Conversely, when American icons like G,F, and possibly PRS (the newcomer) move production to the orient, well THAT is a sellout to me. My 1989 PRS CE 24 has always been superior in many ways to newly built American PRS guitars costing 2x what I paid back in 89. Sure the locking tuners were not perfect, the rotary switch different, but the neck and it's coupling way better.

If someone is willing to invest and stay financially determined, using overseas plants can produce fantastic results...in any area of product. Guitars are no exception. Back to the OP, I personally find the Japanese made guitars (all things being equal with good to perfect set up) better than the premium line by current pricing. What I always tell my students that need the latest and greatest is that VAN HALEN is the answer.

Eddie changed the world with a $200 parts guitar with bad routs, bad alignment, and a larger than needed neck pocket because he could flat play. So when all is said and done a premium of today SMOKES many American made guitars of the 60's and 70's. Half of those collectables retain value and they play like firewood to me. Those fretless wonder gibsons being the worst offenders but they bring the bucks.

I don't collect guitars, I play them and feel today's pricing models are accurate representations of what folks will pay. And any $ you spend on upper end ibby will do no worse than the $ you plunk down on a USA made G, F, or PRS over the years with production models.

 

I have KIKO100 (and Jem's, JS etc.). I have no complaints about that quitar at all, the neck feels a bit like JS (which to me is very strat-like) just with flatter fretboard. I would think the neck would feel more "home" with people who are not used or doesn't like those normal thin, wide and flat Ibanez necks. IMO the SA-type body thickness is more comfortable than normal S (or even RG). It has the best bridge in original EDGE and those scallops, which especially with the jumbo frets help playing in the higher register. The pickups are more or less slightly hot-rodded paf pro's, and combining those with the Alder-body make it a bright sounding guitar (at least mine is).

The only thing I'm not crazy about it, is the color and the SA-body looks which IMO are ok, but not as much eye-candy than let say most JEM's.

Can't say much about the Premium, personally though I wouldn't buy one if I would need to select as I really like the original EDGE and those scallops. Also, when I bought mine, the (street) price difference was not THAT much to even consider the Premium.

 

The US companies aren't selling out, they're adapting. If you can't build an Epiphone in the US to sell at the $799 price point it has to, you have to build it where you can. Same for every builder.

 

Let me define SELLOUT as I see it. It is a questionable word choice for what I meant. SELLOUT is taking an iconic American brand and telling the public (through marketing of course) that they need to build a line of guitars in the orient to "compete" with cheap orient production guitars like Ibby, ESP, etc. They won't phrase it that way but that's it.

What that says to me is that Asian guitars are cheap in terms of price AND cheaply made...almost comes across like "if you want cheap we will give you cheap so we can stay in business". There has never been anything overtly cheap about a Japanese made guitar...or knife, or what have you.

The reality is that Asian guitars, especially the top tier stuff, is MILES above what most guitar makers can make in any country and few folks will admit that. There are exceptions, no doubt. But to do it on the scale that they do is quite impressive compared to guy that makes 20 nice guitars a year. Those 20 will not play or sound any better to 99% of the folks on this planet that buy a Japanese guitar.

Like you said, it is to stay in business. I get it. The irony is that it has taken years for these American overseas builds to have any consistent quality to them. At first they were just to be cheap and capitalize on the G or F shaped bodies...(I don't mean the Jap fenders...those were actually on par with American IMHO). Those shapes sell. But quite frankly brands like Agile took a bite out of the pie and have the big boys scrambling.

Why not stick your nads out there and say "WE ARE GIBSON. WE INVENTED ROCK. We make the finest guitars in the world and they are American made, period."

That would never fly because they are riding their own glory day coattails when the competition was two main companies. They haven't had an original thought in 40years and need to stay in business by moving production elsewhere for the bulk of what sells...and they still rehash the same old designs with PAF pickup clones.

Now we compete with the orient in their own game instead of leading from the front. Times are a changing for sure, and the younger generations don't look at the VALUE of a quality made thing like I do. Face it, you need 1-3 guitars to cover all the bases. One great guitar will last a lifetime, just like one great knife of fine steel you can resharpen. But disposable attitude is just that, everything is disposable (except income-- unless it's from someone else!) and guitars are not an exception.

So the SELLOUT I mention is unavoidable and needed. If we all bought just one good guitar, the business comes to a grinding halt. It just galls me, the premise under which they advertise; trying to remain stoic American icons while transacting in yen an yuan 95% of the time...and acting like America has no equal. In terms of many things, especially freedom, America will NEVER have an equal But we sure as hell do when it comes to guitars.

 

Rich, clarify which Gibson branded models you are stating are currently produced in Japan.

 

I didn't say Gibson, I said Epiphone [which we all know is under the Gibson umbrella] and I never said japan

 

Not sure where Epiphone fits in this convo.